Disclaimer: Please note that none of the information contained in these files is meant to be professional information. Consult your vet, attorney or other professional for their advice. To: equinerescue@imagicomm.com From: TubaDeb@aol.com Subject: EQ-ResQ: Trespassing Date: Mon, 21 May 2001 02:45:16 EDT Hey everyone! I need some advice. Today I found a stranger at my corral fence feeding my horse apples. This conserned me a lot! This woman parked across the street and made no attempt to ask permission to visit my horse (though it was very obvious people were home) and she had to walk about a 150' onto the property. I admit I was rude in asking her not to feed my horse and that I didn't appreciate strangers walking up into my yard. I was very shocked when she told me she's done this often when walking her children to and from school (which also bothers me because she implied that it was okay for her children to approach and feed strange animals and that it was okay to trespass). I'm sorry, I'm also fuming in this letter a little too! Here's where I need advice. How do I protect myself and my horse from further instances such as this (we all know horses can get excited about treats and take a finger along with it) and I know people are "sue-happy" these days. There are a lot of children who walk by every morning/ afternoon to school and I don't want them to follow suit. What can I do to discourage this? I can't be home to stand gaurd (I'm a college student who works quite a bit) and I don't want to lose my horse in a lawsuit. What can I do to legally protect myself? Thanks so much for the help. Sorry this is so long winded. Take care! Debbie & Una ========== TubaDeb@aol.com ====== To: equinerescue@imagicomm.com From: Picabo02@aol.com Subject: Re: EQ-ResQ: Trespassing Date: Mon, 21 May 2001 10:44:59 EDT Try posting No Trespassing signs around your property...unfortunately these incidents do happen as people naturally want to see pretty horses and see no harm in giving treats... however I'm with you...PLEASE LEAVE MY HORSES ALONE! We have neighbor kids who come over and I just finally told them I do not want them on the property unless we are outside, because there are things that can go wrong with horses and I don't want anyone hurt! But, you can put up "no trespassing" signs, also...I think Tractor Supply carries signs that say "do not feed horses" or something like that...you may try that route! Good Luck! Johanna RideAway Farm Lebanon, TN ========== Picabo02@aol.com ====== To: equinerescue@imagicomm.com From: dlinkous@radix.net Subject: Re: EQ-ResQ: Trespassing Date: Mon, 21 May 2001 11:21:26 -0400 >What can I do to legally protect myself? You are subject to the "attractive nuisance" laws, as is anyone with a horse. What you should do is consult a lawyer familiar with this situation (preferably a lawyer who has, at least in part, an equine practice... you might ask a large stable in your area for a reference). The lawyer can advise you how to protect yourself... type of fencing, type and number of signs, and so forth. If you have a Horse Council in your state, they might have a pamphlet with advice, or someone to consult. Diana ========== dlinkous@radix.net ====== Date: Mon, 21 May 2001 09:40:30 -0600 (MDT) To: equinerescue@imagicomm.com From: Pat Calloway Subject: Re: EQ-ResQ: Trespassing At 02:45 AM 5/21/01 -0400, TubaDeb@aol.com wrote: >I admit I was rude in asking her not to feed my horse and that I didn't >appreciate strangers walking up into my yard. I was very shocked when she >told me she's done this often when walking her children to and from school No, you *weren't* rude in asking (I would have *told*, not asked) her not to feed your horse and pointing out that she was trespassing (and to get the bleep off your property!). Unfortunately I'm not surprised that people have the nerve to do this as they don't seem to have been taught much of anything these days. I second the recommendation of the "NO TRESPASSING" signs posted prominently around your property. I'd suggest calling your local police or sheriff and asking them for some suggestions about the problem. You may also want to contact your local county extension agency or an attorney for advice as liability as laws can vary so much from area to area. And if you catch this woman on your property again, I would call the police and have her either arrested or warned for trespassing. I can understand horse crazy kids being tempted into disobeying the rules and petting or feeding the horses, but adults should know better. Sheesh - people seem to view other people's property as a public park these days and have no sense of boundries or appropriate behavior. Then they will get mad at *you* for pointing it out. Pat Calloway, Equine Rescue Listowner epona@concentric.net (AZ) http://www.crt-stable.com/equinerescue ========== Pat Calloway ====== To: equinerescue@imagicomm.com From: "Jennifer Williams" Subject: Re: EQ-ResQ: Trespassing Date: Mon, 21 May 2001 10:46:51 -0500 >You are subject to the "attractive nuisance" laws, as is anyone with a >horse. One of the horse magazines I subscribe to (Horse Illustrated, Horse & Rider, or Equus) recently had a good article on attractive nuisance laws (will try to dig them out tonight and see which one it was!). Aside from consulting a lawyer, they also suggested you post no tresspassing signs. They also suggested you send letters to people in your neighborhood stating that you do not want them nor their children on your property, feeding the horses, etc. because accidents can happen. NOW, I would ask an attorney about this first to make sure you aren't possibly opening yourself up to more troubles (we had that talk on whether or not to post you had dangerous animals and how acknowledging that you had them might make you more likely to be held liable). Anyway, that might just give you more things to ask an attorney about. Good luck! Jenn ========== "Jennifer Williams" ====== To: equinerescue@imagicomm.com From: "Jennifer Williams" Subject: Re: EQ-ResQ: Trespassing Date: Mon, 21 May 2001 10:49:52 -0500 >No, you *weren't* rude in asking (I would have *told*, not asked) her not >to feed your horse and pointing out that she was trespassing (and to get >the bleep off your property!). Unfortunately I'm not surprised that people >have the nerve to do this as they don't seem to have been taught much of >anything these days. I'll second this! I board my horses as well as the rescue horse I foster - we also have about 4 other fostered rescue horses boarded at the farm I'm at. Anyway, I recently had to leave a note and am in the processing of posting signs on the stalls and/or pens where my horses and the rescue's horses are. I've told the people at the barn that unless my horses are injured or ill, they are to leave my horses alone. This means no FEEDING (especially with the rescue horses, some of them are on strict diets for various reasons! People think we're cruel at the barn for putting on obese gelding on a diet, even at the direction of a veterinarian!). It also means no treats, no petting, and no entering their stalls or pens at all. I've upset some people at the barn who seem to think that horses are community property - but that's really too bad. You are responsible for your animals, and you have every right to tell people to leave them alone. Jennifer Williams (www.vanbasti.com) President, Lone Star Equine Rescue - http://www.lser.org Equine Behavior Net - http://www.equine-behavior.net Imprint-Training.com - http://www.imprint-training.com ========== "Jennifer Williams" ====== To: equinerescue@imagicomm.com From: Picabo02@aol.com Subject: Re: EQ-ResQ: Trespassing Date: Mon, 21 May 2001 11:56:21 EDT Another note....my mother-in-law had some neighbors who were feeding her QH over then fence...the horse almost died from colic because of all the "goodies" he was getting from the neighbor. He ended up foundering and is fine now...but people just don't know of the harm they can do, by their unsuspecting niceness! Johanna RideAway Farm Lebanon, TN ========== Picabo02@aol.com ====== To: equinerescue@imagicomm.com From: dlinkous@radix.net Subject: Re: EQ-ResQ: Trespassing Date: Mon, 21 May 2001 12:19:58 -0400 Another thought on this subject. I've seen a lot of angry posts about this, but I truly think it is just a product of today's society, where most people know absolutely nothing about large animals -- they really *are* attracted to horses, just as they would to any large animal at a zoo (even if they know your farm is not a zoo ). Also, they don't seem to respect property, and may simply see stepping up to the fence as akin to kids taking a shortcut across someone's lawn at a corner. I think it's best not to express anger at them for this "let's feed the pretty horsies" attitude. It is a great opportunity for educating them, instead. If you make your neighbors angry at you, you have opened yourself to all sorts of nasty behavior, from kids throwing rocks at the horses to lordy knows what else. If you can talk to them logically when you actually catch them in person about horses needing to eat only what you feed them for their own good (perhaps you could infer that *they* could be liable if your horse gets sick from what they feed it)... or whatever you can get your lawyer to suggest to you. I understand anger at tresspassing (and would be angry myself), but holding back on the anger and just being firm and logical with people who are naive may be the best approach. Of course, the ideal situation is where there are no horses next to perimeter fencing bordering public roads. Ha. Expensive to double fence for some places, but if possible, would definitely help, along with signs on it as well as each paddock and fence line. Perhaps an electric tape as the exterior perimeter fence would help -- cheap and ...shocking. Diana ========== dlinkous@radix.net ====== Date: Mon, 21 May 2001 11:37:49 -0600 (MDT) To: equinerescue@imagicomm.com From: Pat Calloway Subject: Re: EQ-ResQ: Trespassing At 12:19 PM 5/21/01 -0400, dlinkous@radix.net wrote: >I think it's best not to express anger at them for this "let's feed the >pretty horsies" attitude. It is a great opportunity for educating them, >instead. If you make your neighbors angry at you, you have opened yourself >to all sorts of nasty behavior I can't totally agree with you here, Diana - and I'm not sure where the 'anger' thing came from - think that's your interpretation of what those of us who are annoyed are saying/doing. While I would start out politely, I have found that many people aren't just ignorant about horses - they're downright stupid, feel that they know better than you and feel that they are *entitled* to be able to do what they like with your animals or whatever on your property. Make a polite request and they have a smart ass response. At that point, I am angry and yep, it will show. Too bad. Some are certainly educable - as I've said, I can understand children being tempted and breaking the rules (and they're just as likely to smart off at adults these days), but I'm tired of adults not having common sense and not being accountable for their actions. I think it's best to be very firm to the point of calling the police and/or taking legal action if they are not willing to listen. As far as opening yourself up to nasty behavior - that's true enough, but I suspect that more than a few people are tired of having to live in fear of offending someone somehow. Heck, I think there's probably more danger of having some new suburb near you get offended by the sight and smell of horses & trying to get you moved out. Someone on Equine-L posted about an entire family making a bike trip to their barn and riding though while a horse was cross-tied in the aisle in a group that included a bike with an infant carrier on the back! I guess it's a good way to Darwinize yourself and your family, but what concerns me is the liability issues for horse owners. Even if the person injured is responsible and admits it and wants to take care of his/her own bills, there's still a good chance that his/her insurance will come after you and your insurance to recover costs - that's spelled out in most people's insurance policies, btw. I suppose horse owners could band together and try to do something to educate the community but I don't know how many non-horsey people would actually listen to anything that was said. ========== Pat Calloway ====== To: equinerescue@imagicomm.com From: Picabo02@aol.com Subject: Re: EQ-ResQ: Trespassing Date: Mon, 21 May 2001 13:43:18 EDT I agree with you Pat! 100%. Sometimes, no matter what you say or do, people will do whatever they want. Unfortunately this is one of the down sides of owning horses, and having them "roadside". I still think No Trespassing signs, and the "Do Not Feed The Horses" signs are the best route. However, I KNOW there will be that one person feeding them directly in front of that sign! Johanna RideAway Farm Lebanon, TN ========== Picabo02@aol.com ====== To: equinerescue@imagicomm.com From: "Huston, Virgil H." Subject: RE: EQ-ResQ: Trespassing Date: Mon, 21 May 2001 13:45:32 -0400 I hope I don't offend anyone, but I have found that dealing with trepassors is extremely effective when you have on a holster with pistol or the handgrip of a handgun sticking out of your pocket. I have never had to take out the weapon and people tend to not argue at all. And they don't come back. My experience is that these people know full well they are trepassing, but they don't care. I am from the old school where manners and proper behavior were still considered the thing to do. Virgil ========== "Huston, Virgil H." ====== To: equinerescue@imagicomm.com From: "Meghan McQuinn" Subject: Re: EQ-ResQ: Trespassing Date: Mon, 21 May 2001 12:49:49 -0500 Just a quick note -- I've seen most people who responded to this thread say post no trespassing signs. About two years ago, we consulted a lawyer concerning pretty much the same thing and according to the lawyer for no trespassing signs to hold up in court, the sign was to say, "No Trespassing" along with (this is where I forget) the city ot state or county code -- I'm assuming it's the city/state/county code that goes along with no trespassing in law books, but I am not sure.. But it's one or the other - city or state or county code. The lawyer also said, if it is a boarding facility, no trespassing signs usually do not hold up because you have people coming and going and one of the trespassers could say they were coming to check out your facilities. This is Nebraska though so god only knows if even half of it holds true for any place else. Best bet is to contact a lawyer in your state that is familiar with equine law. I'd go as far as getting the no trespassing signs with the city/state/county code .. and I'd also get a sign that said, "Violators will be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law." Or however it's really worded. I've also seen signs that the basic jist of the sign was the owner of the property and maybe even horse(s) would not be liable for injury, death, etc. to persons who choose to participate in equine activities on their property.. and then ya know the lovely sign your life away slip of paper that says the same exact thing. I wonder if those signs alone hold up in court? Or if you have to have the signed piece of paper and even if it is signed -- does it still hold up? I don't know.. Good luck! Let us know if you come up with something! Take Care, Meghan ========== "Meghan McQuinn" ====== To: equinerescue@imagicomm.com From: TubaDeb@aol.com Date: Mon, 21 May 2001 13:49:50 EDT Subject: Re: EQ-ResQ: Trespassing << It is a great opportunity for educating them, instead. >> Thanks for all of the wonderful posts! I will be posting "No Tresspassing" and "Don't feed the Horse" signs. I agree that educating the people would be a good thing (and to do it without anger)! I talked to my neighbor this morning (there are only the two of us on our block) to let her know of what's been going on, and to my suprise found out the woman had come back this morning to feed the pretty horsey another apple while taking her kids to school. ..::sigh::.. Well, take care all, I'm off to work! Debbie ========== TubaDeb@aol.com ====== To: equinerescue@imagicomm.com From: CountryGirl92664@aol.com Subject: Re: EQ-ResQ: Trespassing Date: Mon, 21 May 2001 13:54:45 EDT I just learned something recently, even though I grew up in the country. It might be something you can ask your lawyer about too and might help if you needed to inforce the law later. I don't know It is a law I know in Texas that the amount of strings on a fence is a warning about that property. I can't remember it exactly I will have to ask my husband. 5 strings means DO NOT ENTER, AND DON'T EVEN ASK FOR PERMISSION, 4 strings means YOU HAVE TO HAVE PERMISSION IN ORDER TO CROSS, and 3 strings means, YOU MANY ENTER WITHOUT PERMISSION AT YOUR OWN RISK. I don't know if any of that will help, but I found it interesting to know, besides just having no traspassing signs up. Laurie ========== CountryGirl92664@aol.com ====== To: equinerescue@imagicomm.com From: Rhema1989@aol.com Subject: Re: EQ-ResQ: Trespassing Date: Mon, 21 May 2001 14:30:17 EDT Hi there. In response to your message about the trespassing neighbor - from the 'other side of the fence'. I AM a neighbor who loves horses and does not have one (YET). I live next door (in country terms) from someone who has 7 horses. My 25 year old daughter and I met them, talked for a LONG time about horses and asked permission to 'visit' their horses, petting and loving them. We were told it was OK and given permission to give 1 apple and 1 carrot a day to each horse. We follow their guidelines completely. They have begun to teach us about the care and responsibilities of owning a horse. We are in the 'learning' stage -- we hope to buy a horse in a year or two, after we become more understanding and knowledgeable about horses. The reason for this note is to let you see the other perspective. I agree TOTALLY that the woman was waaaaaay out of line and rude to even consider petting and feeding someone else's horses. I agree with all the messages that I have seen. Could it be that this woman also needs to learn about horses? Perhaps sharing information and educating her might help? ========== Rhema1989@aol.com ====== To: equinerescue@imagicomm.com From: Picabo02@aol.com Subject: Re: EQ-ResQ: Trespassing Date: Mon, 21 May 2001 14:38:37 EDT wow, I never knew that! The property we purchased has 5 strand barb wire, and we're in Tennessee...I only hope those same rules apply here! Johanna RideAway Farm Lebanon, TN ========== Picabo02@aol.com ====== To: equinerescue@imagicomm.com From: "Jennifer Williams" Subject: Re: EQ-ResQ: Trespassing Date: Mon, 21 May 2001 13:38:41 -0500 >I wonder if those signs alone hold up in court? Or if >you have to have the signed piece of paper and even if it is signed -- does >it still hold up? About 5 years ago, I had an equine science class with a section in equine law. This was about the time that many states were passing laws that say something about not holding people responsible for death or injury that results as the inherent risk of equine activities (summing it up, probably badly ;)). Anyway, at that time, it depended (and probably still does) heavily on the state you were in. Some states (Colorado, I believe was one) had good laws to protect horse owners at the time, and law suits were going in favor of the owners of the horses. It was not so in many, many states, though. Obviously, my info is a little old (5 years) - I hope someone has more recent education in equine law. :) Jennifer Williams (www.vanbasti.com) President, Lone Star Equine Rescue - http://www.lser.org Equine Behavior Net - http://www.equine-behavior.net Imprint-Training.com - http://www.imprint-training.com ========== "Jennifer Williams" ====== To: equinerescue@imagicomm.com From: dlinkous@radix.net Subject: Re: EQ-ResQ: Trespassing Date: Mon, 21 May 2001 14:48:41 -0400 >I wonder if those signs alone hold up in court? Or if >you have to have the signed piece of paper and even if it is signed -- does >it still hold up? A few states have laws that do take into account those signs, Maryland being one, so it really is important to contact a local lawyer or your State's Horse Council about the laws on tresspass and attractive nuisance. But I must say, Virgil's pistol packin' approach sounds like it surely would make an impression. As long as the gun is registered, I'd assume you can pack it on your own property, but that's something to check on too. Diana ========== dlinkous@radix.net ====== Date: Mon, 21 May 2001 12:48:42 -0600 (MDT) To: equinerescue@imagicomm.com From: Pat Calloway Subject: Re: EQ-ResQ: Trespassing At 02:30 PM 5/21/01 -0400, Rhema1989@aol.com wrote: >I live next door (in country terms) from someone who has 7 >horses. My 25 year old daughter and I met them, talked for a LONG time about >horses and asked permission to 'visit' their horses, petting and loving them. >We were told it was OK and given permission to give 1 apple and 1 carrot a >day to each horse. We follow their guidelines completely. Ah, but BIG difference here, Rhema - you asked first, you talked to them about it and you are following their guidelines. I'd have no problem with someone who did that and was respectful of my animals and my rules and my guess is that most others would feel the same way. ========== Pat Calloway ====== To: equinerescue@imagicomm.com From: dlinkous@radix.net Subject: Re: EQ-ResQ: Trespassing Date: Mon, 21 May 2001 14:50:24 -0400 >It is a law I know in Texas that the amount of strings on a fence is a >warning about that property. I can't remember it exactly I will have to ask >my husband. 5 strings means DO NOT ENTER, AND DON'T EVEN ASK FOR PERMISSION, >4 strings means YOU HAVE TO HAVE PERMISSION IN ORDER TO CROSS, and 3 strings >means, YOU MANY ENTER WITHOUT PERMISSION AT YOUR OWN RISK. Interesting! But I'd think that most ER farms would not be using barbed wire, which I assume this refers to. I wouldn't think most could afford 5 board fence, if it applies to boards as well. Diana ========== dlinkous@radix.net ====== To: equinerescue@imagicomm.com From: "Jennifer Williams" Subject: Re: EQ-ResQ: Trespassing Date: Mon, 21 May 2001 13:56:14 -0500 > >It is a law I know in Texas that the amount of strings on a fence is a > >warning about that property. >Interesting! But I'd think that most ER farms would not be using barbed >wire, which I assume this refers to. I wouldn't think most could afford 5 >board fence, if it applies to boards as well. And I would want to check this out and make sure it is correct and would hold up in court. Most people wouldn't know this, either, and would tresspass regardless. And since we seem to live in a society where we want to protect people against themselves, the courts still might find in their favor. Jennifer Williams (www.vanbasti.com) President, Lone Star Equine Rescue - http://www.lser.org Equine Behavior Net - http://www.equine-behavior.net Imprint-Training.com - http://www.imprint-training.com ========== "Jennifer Williams" ====== To: equinerescue@imagicomm.com From: CountryGirl92664@aol.com Subject: Re: EQ-ResQ: Trespassing Date: Mon, 21 May 2001 15:11:55 EDT just talked to my husband.. in the state of TEXAS if you paint the top of some of your post around you land BLUE that is also a sign of being posted. im surfing now trying to find the texas trespassing laws...there are alot of the old laws still in effect, just like in texas it is legal to hang someone for cattle rustling ( a judge just told my brother--n-law that when he went to court when someone he knew stoled his donkeys) lol ========== CountryGirl92664@aol.com ====== Date: Mon, 21 May 2001 13:35:52 -0600 (MDT) To: equinerescue@imagicomm.com From: Pat Calloway Subject: Re: EQ-ResQ: Trespassing At 03:11 PM 5/21/01 -0400, CountryGirl92664@aol.com wrote: >im surfing now trying to find the texas trespassing laws http://www.law.utexas.edu/dawson/index.htm has a lot of useful horse law information. I think it would be easier to put up "NO TRESPASSING!" signs than worry about five strands of wire or paint fence posts since Joe & Jane Average and their kids Sally and Tommy wouldn't know those laws anyway - heck even Dick & Mary Horsey wouldn't necessarily be aware of them. This site may also be useful: http://www.findlaw.com/ ========== Pat Calloway ====== To: equinerescue@imagicomm.com From: "Cris May" Subject: Re: EQ-ResQ: Trespassing Date: Mon, 21 May 2001 18:32:44 -0400 We have No Trespassing signs by the road, but its a busy state road so not a problem anyway. Our interior fencing carries signs saying "Please Don't Feed Fingers To The Horses." Such a sign might be enough to make someone think twice about feeding your horses, even though it won't help with trespassers. Cris May Days End Farm Horse Rescue (MD) http://www.defhr.org ========== "Cris May" ====== To: equinerescue@imagicomm.com From: Paulina97@aol.com Subject: Re: EQ-ResQ: Trespassing Date: Mon, 21 May 2001 23:28:44 EDT In a message dated 05/21/2001 10:11:27 AM Pacific Daylight Time, dlinkous@radix.net writes: << Another thought on this subject. I've seen a lot of angry posts about this, but I truly think it is just a product of today's society, where most people know absolutely nothing about large animals -- they really *are* attracted to horses, just as they would to any large animal at a zoo (even if they know your farm is not a zoo ). >> I agree whole heartedly. I am very protective of my animals (horses and dogs). However, I rather have my neighbors understand my concerns, than have them leave angry. I think you will find that most people will become a sort of neighborhood watch, once they understand. This is a lesson I learned the hard way as one of my neighbors purposely poisoned our cat with anti-freeze. Another neighbor found her and called us at work. She survived but only because my stay-at-home neighbor saw her so we could take her to the vet. Besides, I think most of these treat givers really just don't know how sensitive a horse can be. . . I work with kids and know that a few kind words (even in a tense situation) can do wonders. With that said, I also do have concerns about repeated trespassing and people indignant to your requests. I believe those people should be dealt with the law. Be sure to report any incidents after this, as legal records will be your best friend in any kind of legal case (civil or otherwise.) Paulina ========== Paulina97@aol.com ====== To: equinerescue@imagicomm.com From: "IHAHS" Subject: Re: EQ-ResQ: Trespassing Date: Tue, 22 May 2001 16:47:36 -0400 I grew up in Texas, my mother once had a peeping tom who kept coming around. The officer told her if he trespassed again to "don't just shoot at him...... shoot him. If he falls on the out side of the fence drag him in and then drag him back out tell 'em you didn't want this low life bleeding on your property" "If he falls in the inside of the fence well then maam he was on your property and you have a right to defend it, your and yours" I remembered his statement for life. :0) My grandpa used to talk about how "they'ed light up a youngin' s rearend with Rock Salt when they got into others property". I know some one else out there had to have a grandpa that told these stories. Those experiences taught me that no matter what you did not cross someone's property with out permission. Now here's my sugestion. Hang a sign out that says "No Tresspassing, violaters will be prosecuted" Then set up a video cammera or get you neighbor to take pictures, when this person feeds your horses. If the kids go to school then you have a pretty good idea of when to set up the video cammera. Deliver the evidence to your prosecutor or sheriff and let them try to get the point across that adults as well as children need to respect the boundaries and know the difference between public and private property. While they're at it they might also explain that other peoples animals no matter how pretty or nice they seem CAN HURT anyone by accident or on purpose. Horses can be very dangerous. If they continue to come on your property sign a complaint and prosecute to the fullest extent of the law. You may be teaching this lady's children a lesson for life. They need that lesson since she ( the mother) not been taught her self. See..... you can still "legally shoot tresspassers", just not with bullets. Janay ========== "IHAHS" ====== To: equinerescue@imagicomm.com From: dlinkous@radix.net Subject: Re: EQ-ResQ: Trespassing Date: Tue, 22 May 2001 22:16:42 -0400 >My grandpa used to talk about how "they'ed light up a youngin' s rearend >with Rock Salt when they got into others property". Happened to me, lo these many years ago, crossing a plowed field after dark (I was only 14). Sure cured me! However, I would be crazy not to check with local authorities as to exactly what I could fire at whom, and under what circumstances. The only time I'd not worry about using a firearm would be if someone were inside my house. Diana ========== dlinkous@radix.net ====== To: equinerescue@imagicomm.com From: "s.pel" Subject: Re: EQ-ResQ: Trespassing Date: Wed, 23 May 2001 00:55:27 -0700 I live in an area (Northern Calif.) where horse owners are probably the biggest offenders of trespassing. Many of the trails have been shut own or blocked by private property. I get permission to cross someone else's property but most dont. I think it is just crazy to come at someone in an angry manner for trespassing. Why not educate them, let them know the danger to your horse and the possibility of the horse injuring them. Shoot if you are a rescue you could be running off a great horse loving volunteer. Have them sign a liability form and put em to work. Across the street from me a man has a large piece of property. He had some old cars and there were some kids going over there and breaking the windows. He came out with a shot gun and grabbed one of the kids by the shirt and told them never to come back on his property. Well this poor guy (property owner) ended up spending more than 6 months in jail for that! Be sure you know your local laws..... Even after this the man gave me permission to ride on his property. I think I would have wrapped the entire property in razor wire!! Shelly ========== "s.pel" ====== To: equinerescue@imagicomm.com From: "Huston, Virgil H." Subject: RE: EQ-ResQ: Trespassing Date: Wed, 23 May 2001 15:06:22 -0400 Boy, am I glad I don't live in California or another state with ridiculous gun laws. I'll bet the concertina wire would also be illegal. One of the poor little dears (vandals) might get hurt. Virgil > I live in an area (Northern Calif.) where horse owners are probably the > biggest offenders of trespassing. > > Well this poor guy (property > owner) ended up spending more than 6 months in jail for that! Be sure you > know your local laws..... ========== "Huston, Virgil H." ====== To: equinerescue@imagicomm.com From: IPIConsult@aol.com Subject: Re: EQ-ResQ: Trespassing Date: Wed, 23 May 2001 16:44:31 EDT Good Grief: I spent 11 years riding in central Europe (Austria) where there are very specific laws prohibiting property owners from blocking right-of-way where a feed road crosses the property. You do have to get permission to ride through forest, unless it is a designated ride-way, but I managed to get permission from numerous private owners. One point, though, is that if a designated forest trail is not maintained, it reverts back to natural status, and the right-to-ride is lost. I always spent a week or so each year maintaining theses trails including cutting fallen branches / trees and replacing signs. In general, though, I could ride every point of the compass in Austria, and I systematically rode most of country over 11 years icluding up to 6 weeks solo with 2 horses crossing the Alps and riding through the Bohemian Massif and Danube River Valley. I still maintain my memberships in riding organizations there which include voluntary identification of horses (I'm number 27 in Steiermark) in case there are problems. The ID is placed on the bridle. To me, it was dissapointing coming back to the USA and having most trail-heads closed due to private access. As a geologist, having explored large portions of Arizona, Colorado, New Mexico, Utah, Wyoming, Oklahoma, and Kansas, it breaks my heart that I cannot even consider riding the Santa Fe Trail from the Arkansas River Valley, Colorado to Santa Fe, NM without crossing several hundred (thousand?) barbed-wire fences. Having seen all this beautiful country while involved in years of minerals exploration makes it even sadder -- I know what I'm missing! Dan ii ========== IPIConsult@aol.com ====== To: equinerescue@imagicomm.com From: JavanTigerEyez@aol.com Subject: EQ-ResQ: Trespassing Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 18:26:52 EDT Hi, i've been reading the posts, and I agree wholeheartedly with everybody here. But, I have a question. What if you have a rescue/rehab center? Where visitors are welcome? I certainly would not want to be held liable if someone was injured on my property, but what to do? Just say, enter at your own risk? and owner is not held liable? Alexis ========== JavanTigerEyez@aol.com ====== To: equinerescue@imagicomm.com From: "Jennifer Williams" Subject: Re: EQ-ResQ: Trespassing Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 22:10:27 -0500 >What if you have a rescue/rehab center? >Where visitors are welcome? I certainly would not want >to be held liable if someone was injured on my property, >but what to do? Just say, enter at your own risk? >and owner is not held liable? I think that's when you really need to investigate some liability insurance. Does anyone here HAVE liability insurance for their rescue group? And if so, can you give any advice to others? Jennifer Williams ========== "Jennifer Williams" ====== Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 21:17:55 -0600 (MDT) To: equinerescue@imagicomm.com From: Pat Calloway Subject: Re: EQ-ResQ: Trespassing At 06:26 PM 5/24/01 -0400, JavanTigerEyez@aol.com wrote: >What if you have a rescue/rehab center? Where >visitors are welcome? I certainly would not want to be held liable if someone >was injured on my property, but what to do? Just say, enter at your own risk? >and owner is not held liable? Generally farms, rescue centers and other businesses have hours or days when they're open to the public. And of course it's always courteous to call ahead and ask them if it's convenient to visit on such and such a day at such and such a time. That's how I've always handled it at any rate. I suspect the majority of rescues don't have signs up advertising that they are rescues due to the kooks out there. My guess is that most rescues don't want people just wandering in anyway. Pat Calloway, Equine Rescue Listowner epona@concentric.net (AZ) http://www.crt-stable.com/equinerescue ========== Pat Calloway ====== Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 21:32:00 -0600 (MDT) To: equinerescue@imagicomm.com From: Pat Calloway Subject: Re: EQ-ResQ: Trespassing At 10:10 PM 5/24/01 -0500, Jennifer Williams wrote: >Does anyone here HAVE liability insurance for their rescue group? Sportsman's writes insurance for a lot of rescues. Here's a link to their page. It says dog clubs, but I believe they do other animals. http://www.dogclubinsurance.com/ Here's a site with a good set of FAQs for horsemen's insurance: http://www.horseinsurance.com/ Just a note that coverages and laws vary a lot from state to state, so one size doesn't fit all. Also the good thing about having liability insurance is that they will pay your defense costs if necessary and that's where the $$ add up if you are sued. And in the US people can and will sue for anything. Whether they collect or not is another story. ========== Pat Calloway ====== To: equinerescue@imagicomm.com From: dlinkous@radix.net Subject: Re: EQ-ResQ: Trespassing Date: Fri, 25 May 2001 01:28:25 -0400 >suspect the majority of rescues don't have signs up advertising that they >are rescues due to the kooks out there. My guess is that most rescues >don't want people just wandering in anyway. Day's End has a sign in front, "Day's End Farm Horse Rescue", and does have visitors at any time (well, not 2 am), though they encourage calling ahead, especially on weekdays. They are set up so that to get onto the property from the road, you have to pass right by the house, and the dogs all bark, so they are aware of any visitors. The dogs are fenced in, of course. To get to the horses, visitors have to pass through a gate which has a large sign warning them not to enter without escort, and there is also a large sign telling them the risk inherent in horses and so forth (it's worded according to Maryland laws, which do protect from liability to some extent). There is always someone on the property, so people may have to wait a minute, but someone will show up. There is a buzzer, I think, at the gate. There definitely is at the house, which has the first floor devoted to the office. They really don't mind if visitors arrive unannounced, as in the past they have had some surprisingly large donations result from such visits. Plus, they have managed to get quite a few of the community involved as volunteers, and do public education, so they are in the public eye. I'm tellin' ya, if you show up there, *somebody* will take you by the arm and lead you around telling each horse's story. I just got their newsletter today, and they have 64 horses on the place. 64 stories of abuse and neglect sure makes an impression on the casual visitor (and of course the new babies born to rescued mares this spring hook them too). I guess it depends on how you manage your rescue and how public you want to be. If you want to be totally anonymous at one end of the scale or totally public at the other. I sort of think that very public places are rather protected by that very fact, actually, since they would have a lot of friends at various levels in the community. Since Day's End is sort of a friend of the court, that does give them some protection. Many if not most of the equines they have were confiscated by the court system, and therefore would be protected by officers of the law if any threats were made on the farm. Diana ========== dlinkous@radix.net ====== To: equinerescue@imagicomm.com From: dlinkous@radix.net Subject: Re: EQ-ResQ: Trespassing Date: Fri, 25 May 2001 01:49:59 -0400 I forgot to mention a couple of things. Day's End also has an isolation facility several miles from the main farm, and that place does not have a sign, nor are visitors allowed or encouraged, unless you are invited. They also have a few trusted individuals who foster horses for which there just isn't room, but which need special care that they can provide. These people's names are not public, so those horses are also not in the public eye in general. And one more layer of protection is Day's End's practice of giving a fresh name to every horse they take in. This keeps the public from being able to associate the horse with any ongoing legal action, in case the former owner might send a spy in to look for the animal. They use the alphabet, so each horse is named according to the next letter of the alphabet as they come in. Makes for some weird names. They currently have a horse named Xam (pronounced Zam). Diana ========== dlinkous@radix.net ====== Date: Fri, 25 May 2001 00:17:28 -0600 (MDT) To: equinerescue@imagicomm.com From: Pat Calloway Subject: Re: EQ-ResQ: Trespassing At 01:28 AM 5/25/01 -0400, dlinkous@radix.net wrote: > >suspect the majority of rescues don't have signs up advertising that they > >are rescues due to the kooks out there. My guess is that most rescues > >don't want people just wandering in anyway. > >Day's End has a sign in front, "Day's End Farm Horse Rescue", and does have >visitors at any time (well, not 2 am), though they encourage calling ahead, >especially on weekdays. As I said - majority. Day's End is one of the larger and more professionally run rescues, plus they actively seek publicity already - I'd expect them and others like ReRun, CERF, UPF, etc to be more open to visitors than an individual doing rescue off his/her own property in addition to possibly working a full-time job, raising kids, etc. >I guess it depends on how you manage your rescue and how public you want to >be. If you want to be totally anonymous at one end of the scale or totally >public at the other. I sort of think that very public places are rather >protected by that very fact, actually, since they would have a lot of >friends at various levels in the community. Possibly - I just can't see the *average* horse rescuer who does it in his/her spare time wanting people wandering on their property at the drop of a hat. Those of you that do it and aren't one of the 'larger' rescues - how do you feel about visitors? Don't mind them coming by at reasonable hours? Prefer they call ahead and make an appointment? Don't want them there at all? Heck, I don't even like my friends dropping by without calling me first to be sure that it's convenient for me and I do the same before dropping by their homes. Pat Calloway, Equine Rescue Listowner epona@concentric.net (AZ) http://www.crt-stable.com/equinerescue ========== Pat Calloway ====== To: equinerescue@imagicomm.com From: "Mike Dodge" Subject: Re: EQ-ResQ: Trespassing Date: Fri, 25 May 2001 03:26:19 -0400 Since H.O.R.S.E. Rescue & Sanctuary would be considered small compared to a few of the larger organizations and we live on the property we don't really care for strangers dropping in unannounced. We don't have a sign since we consider ourselves more like a battered women's shelter. Even the police don't know those addresses. We are very concerned that since we abuse investigations that someone may stop by and hurt one or more of our horses. It has happened in the past when we refused an adoption. This person stopped by when we weren't home and drove a nail in the left front foot of our two personal horses out of spite. We can't prove anything but we know it was them. Fortunately, they were fine after healing but the nails came very close to the navicular bone in each of the horses. We do like visitors that are considerate enough to call ahead. Each one that comes here gets the royal tour and each horse's story is told. We live in a very rural area and know all the local vehicles that travel our road. We also have four dogs that sound the alarm whenever they hear a car door slam. We are surrounded on three sides by an almost impenetrable hedgerow with farm land surrounding that. We seldom leave here. When we do manage to get away, our daughter and son-in-law live right next door and they watch. We are a little paranoid about leaving the horses unguarded but so far we have not had any trouble in NY like we did in California. With the price of horsemeat climbing steadily we are even more vigilant, especially in our front pasture that is closer to the road. If we could afford it I would put eight foot chain link around the property with locked gates to keep unwanted strangers and critters out as well as keeping horses from escaping. Mike and Chris Dodge Founders H.O.R.S.E. Rescue & Sanctuary www.angelfire.com/home/rescuehorse1/index.html ========== "Mike Dodge" ====== To: equinerescue@imagicomm.com From: Rhema1989@aol.com Subject: Re: EQ-ResQ: Trespassing Date: Fri, 25 May 2001 09:15:48 EDT I volunteer at Hope For Horses - an equine rescue and rehab facility here in Western North Carolina. They have a sign up that says "Visitors by appointment, only". They also have signs up posting the state law concerning liability of equine facilities of all kinds. Putting the information out there seems to be the key. Of course, the volunteers sign a waiver for insurance purposes, too. ========== Rhema1989@aol.com ====== To: equinerescue@imagicomm.com From: "Jennifer Williams" Subject: Re: EQ-ResQ: Trespassing Date: Fri, 25 May 2001 09:16:13 -0500 >Possibly - I just can't see the *average* horse rescuer who does it in >his/her spare time wanting people wandering on their property at the drop >of a hat. Those of you that do it and aren't one of the 'larger' rescues - >how do you feel about visitors? Since we don't yet have a farm, we're in a unique position (or somewhat unique position, I guess!). We work through foster homes. We do not give out the name of our foster homes and their locations (unless required to do so by law..) to protect their privacy. All of our foster homes either work out of their own homes or boarding barns, and they don't want people showing up any old time, which is understandable. We are working to maintain a list of foster homes that do not mind visitors, so we can let people meet the foster horses (as we become more well known, more people want to do this - and I think it is great, when possible). All of our foster homes, btw, are required to schedule visits with potential adopters, after they've gone through the approval process. I try to keep myself open to meeting people interested in the rescue. I foster one rescue horse, but there are 4 others at the barn (I'm recruiting more and more boarders to foster ;)) - So we have several horses with varying stories. And of course, I'll talk about any of them all day long.. :) Jennifer Williams (www.vanbasti.com) President, Lone Star Equine Rescue - http://www.lser.org Equine Behavior Net - http://www.equine-behavior.net Imprint-Training.com - http://www.imprint-training.com ========== "Jennifer Williams" ====== To: equinerescue@imagicomm.com From: "Jennifer Williams" Subject: Re: EQ-ResQ: Trespassing Date: Fri, 25 May 2001 09:20:13 -0500 >And one more layer of protection is Day's End's practice of giving a fresh >name to every horse they take in. This keeps the public from being able to >associate the horse with any ongoing legal action, in case the former owner >might send a spy in to look for the animal. That's something we learned from Day's End (I think they've taught a lot of rescuers a lot of info, whether directly or indirectly). Our first 3 horses kept their old names, but now everyone who comes in gets a new name - although we don't use the alphabet method (I just can't think of such creative names! ;)). We let our foster homes do the renaming, too, which they seem to enjoy! You might be amazed, too, how many people cannot recognize their own horses when he/she has a different name.. Jennifer Williams (www.vanbasti.com) President, Lone Star Equine Rescue - http://www.lser.org Equine Behavior Net - http://www.equine-behavior.net Imprint-Training.com - http://www.imprint-training.com ========== "Jennifer Williams" ====== To: equinerescue@imagicomm.com From: keith_wheelis@webtv.net (Keith Wheelis) Subject: Re: EQ-ResQ: Trespassing Date: Fri, 25 May 2001 14:09:59 -0500 (CDT) Is there anything to prevent a person from sort of turning the tables on someone who trespasses? I can't believe that this woman actually came back after she was asked not to feed the horse....so I think I would be inclined to tell her that my horse has special dietary needs, establish a value for the horse, and threaten to sue HER for reimbursement of vet bills or the replacement value of the horse should he become ill or choke on one of her treats... Is there any legal reason why you couldn't do this? To: equinerescue@imagicomm.com From: "May, Cris" Subject: EQ-ResQ: Trespassing Date: Fri, 25 May 2001 14:25:06 -0500 >suspect the majority of rescues don't have signs up advertising that they >are rescues due to the kooks out there. My guess is that most rescues >don't want people just wandering in anyway. >Day's End has a sign in front, "Day's End Farm Horse Rescue", and does have visitors at any time< We actually have several signs up, including a big banner on the fence along the road. We have few, if any, kook problems (aside from potential adopters), but the signs are apparently invisible to folks who call animal control to report poor looking horses on our property. We do have specific visiting hours but make every effort to accommodate surprise visitors. This is not usually a problem, given that we have a staff size (necessitated by 64+ horses)that permits impromptu guided tours. It can still be a strain when a *party of 5* appears for a tour on a Sunday at feeding time when there are three workers on site. We are exceptionally lucky in our farm sites, in terms of trespassers. The main farm fronts on a busy state highway with no pull off area, thus discouraging feeding through the fence. At the end of that fence is a gas station, behind that one house, cornfields owned by our landlord on the rear and beyond that I-70, and the property on the other side of the farm is also owned by the landlord. I shudder to think of the trespassing problems we would have if surrounded by housing. Our quarantine property appears to be a private farm, with trees screening the pastures from the road. Most of our volunteers don't know where it is and tours are never given (Diana being a very special exception). There are no signs of any kind posted on the exterior of that farm. >I guess it depends on how you manage your rescue and how public you want to be.< I can certainly understand if someone wants to remain small and anonymous, instead of "growing" their rescue into an organization. Were I to start a rescue of my own that is more than likely the route I'd choose. But then I'd be facing the same issue the original poster on this thread was - how to deal with trespassers. And it is an issue I have been frightened by when I think of buying property and keeping my personal horse at home as well. Beyond my earlier response, my only suggestion would be for those considering starting to rescue, which is to look very, very hard at all aspects of the property you have or are considering, for suitability in ways that might not occur to you immediately. >>They also have a few trusted individuals who foster horses for which there just isn't room, but which need special care that they can provide.<< I believe we did many, many years ago, but aside from 2 very brief training stints no horses have been fostered out in the 8 years I have been with Days End. We do have horses who live with us who are "fully fostered" in that someone foots the monthly bill for that equine, whatever the costs are. >>And one more layer of protection is Day's End's practice of giving a fresh name to every horse they take in. << I don't know that this protects us from trespassers. It does protect us from lawsuits. Every single horse that comes to us gets a new name, whether it was donated for our education programs, a give-up, or a rescue seizure. Why? Because we did get sued by someone who gave us a horse for the education program, because we didn't change the horse's name and the donor felt this made people who knew she had owned the horse think she had abused it. Yes, we won the case, but it cost money to do so, money which would have been better spent on rescue horses than lawyers. Cris May Days End Farm Horse Rescue http://www.defhr.org ========== "May, Cris" ====== To: equinerescue@imagicomm.com From: "Debbie & Dale Tolentino" Subject: EQ-ResQ: Trespassing Date: Fri, 25 May 2001 20:17:37 -0500 Hi We run a Sanctuary and Rescue center where we rehabilitate horses and wildlife. All visitors must call ahead of time to make an appointment and I stress to everyone that we are a CLOSED facility. That means that the public is not welcome unless prior arrangements have been made. We do this to protect the animals as well as the public. Deb RVT Debbie Tolentino RVT D-D Farm- Animal Sanctuary and Rescue Columbia, Missouri ========== "Debbie & Dale Tolentino" ====== To: equinerescue@imagicomm.com From: dlinkous@radix.net Subject: EQ-ResQ: Trespassing - PMU farms Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2001 08:23:37 -0400 >None of us want to come home to fnd strangers in our >yards or around our animals...but I have found that a >great many of the anti PMU groups and individuals feel >differently about PMU farms. I'm sure most sensable people do not feel they can tresspass. However, animal *rights* (not welfare) people usually don't have the same inhibitions as others. As for those who are not, strictly speaking, animal rights advocates, I would imagine the fact that PMU farms all sell the urine to the same company may have led some to believe that the farms are also owned by that company, or at least some of the farms. Perhaps if the farms had signs reading "NO TRESSPASSING. This is a family owned and operated farm." it would be clear to them. Whether that would stop the tresspassing or not, I don't know. Diana ========== dlinkous@radix.net ====== To: equinerescue@imagicomm.com From: Picabo02@aol.com Subject: Re: EQ-ResQ: Trespassing - PMU farms Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2001 08:37:13 EDT I have to agree that a private farm is just that, a PRIVATE farm. No one, has the authority to just barge in and call themself an inspector. If there is abuse or neglect going on...then that is a whole other debate. However, if it is a privately run business, family run, then the whole privacy thing should be respected! Just my two cents! Johanna RideAway Farm Lebanon, TN ========== Picabo02@aol.com ====== To: equinerescue@imagicomm.com From: "Windfield Farm" Subject: Re: EQ-ResQ: Trespassing - PMU farms Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2001 09:04:27 -0400 Jan wrote: > Just curious as to how many feel that these farms > should be open to public inspcetion on demand and why > you would feel that they are different than any other > property or farm....just trying to figure out the > reasoning - whether it is in fact that people believe > that because of the nature of the industry the > producers should not have the same rights as > others...or if it is simply a matter of not > understanding that these are private, individually run farms. My view, FWIW: There is no excuse for invasion of privacy under any circumstances. A suggestion, though: the fastest way for the PMU farmers to start putting the ugly "abusive and inhumane conditions" propaganda to rest is to make the farms open to visit BY APPOINTMENT, to sane and stable individuals who have the courtesy to call, explain themselves and who politely request an appointment. Seeing is believing for most human beings - hearing it from others is not. Nanci ========== "Windfield Farm" ====== To: equinerescue@imagicomm.com Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2001 08:49:47 -0500 From: shirley mccans Subject: EQ-ResQ: Trespassing - PMU farms No one should have the right to demand to tour a farm. In this area, we try to stay as private and anomyous as possible and still get the job done. There is such a redneck mentality around here that we would have trouble constantly otherwise. People will try to shoot you or a horse if you have 'rescued' one they were abusing. That's one of the biggest reason we do our local work through the vets and the humane society. So very few people in the area even know we are here. It really is too bad it has to be that way. I'm sure we could do a better job if we could spread the word more. But any horse that needs a home is welcome here, if we can get it here. I personally am not able to travel long distances, but if we can get a ride for a horse, it is welcome. http://myozland.tripod.com/ozlandhorserescue ========== shirley mccans ====== To: equinerescue@imagicomm.com From: "May, Cris" Subject: RE: EQ-ResQ: Trespassing - PMU farms Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2001 09:13:01 -0500 >>Just curious as to how many feel that these farms should be open to public inspcetion on demand and why you would feel that they are different than any other property or farm....<<< No simple answer to this. If you look at a PMU farm as someone's home then it would seem clear that it should not be reasonable to expect to inspect on demand. Until you consider that a PMU farm is a business, and most businesses can reasonably expect to be inspected, formally and informally, on a regular basis, by both the public and by governmental agencies. >>just trying to figure out the reasoning - whether it is in fact that people believe that because of the nature of the industry the producers should not have the same rights as others...or if it is simply a matter of not understanding that these are private, individually run farms. <<< I will assume here that you mean folks who show up for on-demand inspections who appear to be "looking for dirt"? At base I think the problem is that many animal rights activists seem to think that their opinions and beliefs and rights are the only ones that count, and therefore they are entitled to inspect whenever and whereever because they "are doing the right thing to protect innocent animals". After all, if the PMU farmer had notice of an inspection s/he'd have time to hide all the abuse that is undoubtedly going on (tongue in cheek here). This is just my opinion, and does not necessarily reflect the views of Days End Farm. Cris May Days End Farm Horse Rescue http://www.defhr.org ========== "May, Cris" ====== Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2001 11:34:35 -0600 (MDT) To: equinerescue@imagicomm.com From: Pat Calloway Subject: RE: EQ-ResQ: Trespassing - PMU farms At 09:13 AM 6/19/01 -0500, May, Cris wrote: >Until you consider that a PMU farm is a business, and most >businesses can reasonably expect to be inspected, formally and informally, >on a regular basis, by both the public and by governmental agencies. I agree that businesses can expect to be inspected by *governmental agencies* who have the legal right to do so, but not that they can expect to be inspected by the public. Most larger local businesses have pretty strong security in place to keep the public from just wandering around their places of business - and we're talking mostly paper shuffling type stuff. Stores which one could reasonably expect to be fairly open to the public have areas that are off limits. Why? Well there are a lot of nuts & criminals out there, there are things that may be dangerous (falling objects, chemicals) plus it's disruptive to have people just wander in & wander around while business is being conducted. Heck it's disruptive enough when someone's spouse and kids show up! I doubt that American Express or Geico or pick any larger business out of your local phone book would be too pleased at a member of the public showing up and saying that they want to look around & inspect things! They may have special tours that are available by arrangement, but you're (generic you) not going to get to just wander around and take a look at stuff and you are very likely to find yourself being escorted out by security or the police if you do so yourself. When I worked for an insurance company, we didn't want unescorted members of the public wandering around our office for a variety of reasons - nuts, theft, disruptive, apt to get hurt and sue, you name it. Now making an *appointment* to do so is a whole 'nother kettle of fish, but just showing up without making a phone call and having them expect you generally isn't a good idea especially if you aren't planning on doing business with them but are just there to check things out to see if they meet with your approval! Pat Calloway, Equine Rescue Listowner epona@concentric.net (AZ) http://www.crt-stable.com/equinerescue ========== Pat Calloway ====== Disclaimer: Please note that none of the information contained in these files is meant to be professional information. Consult your vet, attorney or other professional for their advice.