Disclaimer: Please note that none of the information contained in these files is meant to be professional information. Consult your vet, attorney or other professional for their advice. Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 17:02:11 -0600 (MDT) To: equinerescue@imagicomm.com From: Pat Calloway Subject: EQ-ResQ: Papers This is kind of an interesting discussion on About.com's Horse Racing board: http://about.delphi.com/ab-horseracing/messages/?msg=1111.1 Horse is placed with agreement that he not be raced again. Horse gets sold and former owner gets an email from DRF's Stablemail (real handy if you are watching a particular race horse) that he had worked 3 furlongs. To make a long thread short, former owner is getting the horse back. I guess the moral of the story is to not let the papers go with racing stock unless you are really truly sure of the new owners. Do most of the rest of you that place former racehorses hold onto the papers? I know that in some cases (mares in particular) they can add to the value of the horse as a prospective broodmare or in some competitions. It's really a shame that the Jockey Club doesn't currently have some sort of option to maintain the registration, but to make the horse ineligible for racing. Pat Calloway, Equine Rescue Listowner epona@concentric.net (AZ) http://www.crt-stable.com/equinerescue ========== Pat Calloway ====== To: equinerescue@imagicomm.com From: "slyshot" Subject: Re: EQ-ResQ: Papers Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 22:42:41 -0400 Since we don't sell the horses, we don't give papers. We have a new policy of transferring ownership after 3 problem-free years if the adopter asks, but I can't imagine someone holding onto a racehorse that long before racing it. My first horse was an ex-racer and from the day he came in his JC certificate was marked "Not for Racing." Klondike (Cris May) Days End Farm Horse Rescue (MD) http://www.defhr.org ========== "slyshot" ====== Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 22:03:40 -0600 (MDT) To: equinerescue@imagicomm.com From: Pat Calloway Subject: Re: EQ-ResQ: Papers At 10:42 PM 5/25/00 -0400, slyshot wrote: >My first horse was an ex-racer and from the day he came in his JC >certificate was marked "Not for Racing." According to Jockey Club rules, that's considered defacing the papers and won't keep the horse from racing. http://home.jockeyclub.com/rules/rules.html#rule18 Per their rules, you can cancel the horse's registration so s/he won't be able to race by "surrender the Certificate of Foal Registration to The Jockey Club within 60 days of the date of sale with an accompanying notation that the horse was transferred or sold "without pedigree"." "C. Notations upon a Certificate of Foal Registration which do not clearly indicate transferred or sold without pedigree, including notations such as "not to be raced," shall not result in cancellation of the Certificate of Foal Registration. Such notations could be regarded as defacing the Certificate of Foal Registration and, submission to The Jockey Club of any such defaced Certificate of Foal Registration, may cause a Corrected Certificate of Foal Registration to be issued." So they could just get a new certificate in that case. I don't know how it works for the Standardbreds (USTA). Maybe they have their act together a bit more in regards to selling and allowing the owner to sell with a 'not to be raced' notation that is honored. I like Cris' rescue's plan of holding the papers for 3 years. That's one way that a person could probably make sure that a horse isn't raced until an injury would have had ample time to heal or the horse would be too old to be able to run at most tracks. And it definitely could be written into a contract that papers weren't given until X date assuming all conditions were met. Pat Calloway, Equine Rescue Listowner epona@concentric.net (AZ) http://www.crt-stable.com/equinerescue ========== Pat Calloway ====== To: equinerescue@imagicomm.com From: SCTwinoaks@aol.com Subject: EQ-ResQ: Papers Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 21:15:56 EDT I know when we purchased Goldie (Pewter's Gold) an OTT from Kate Demasi for our daughter Megan we needed the papers so Megan could show her. Some of the shows in our area and the surrounding areas are for registered horses only. Kate sent us the papers with Ineligible for Racing in red on the registration papers. I would reccommend this for any owner that wants to make sure their horse is retired from racing. You can't be sure that they might be raced anyway, but it seems that the papers would be questioned. Just a suggestion. Suzan Twin Oaks Farm South Carolina ========== SCTwinoaks@aol.com ====== To: equinerescue@imagicomm.com From: "s.pel" Subject: Re: EQ-ResQ: Papers Date: Sat, 27 May 2000 05:28:57 -0700 The registration discussion does bring up and interesting thought. I know that on dog registration papers, there is a place to check if you do not want the dog to be used for breeding when you sell a puppy. There really needs to be a place on equine reg. papers for such addititions. I cant imagine that it wouldnt benefit any one involved in any breed. It would just be a few additional boxes to check when registering your horse. Such as Not for raceing, not for breeding or for breeding only. This way when a responsable breeder sees a flaw in in a horse they can be sure the trait will not be carried through a string of babys that can all be traiced through papers to their stallion. It seems the sanction doing the registering would be happy because they could charge a few extra bucks when a person wishes to re register a horse. I sure would save a lot of trouble when unscroupulious peope try to buy and then sell a horse that has has a major injury and they dont disclose this to the buyer. Now, I wouldnt know how to go about convincing the powers that be how to make these changes but, I am sure one of you folks out there must have some ideas. What about petitions circulated at shows? This could be a major scange in the way things are done but, it seems it could benefit all involved especially the horses. Shelly ========== "s.pel" ====== To: equinerescue@imagicomm.com From: CC40058@aol.com Subject: Re: EQ-ResQ: Papers Date: Sat, 27 May 2000 12:45:23 EDT My opinion is that papers should go with horses...I feel that it is part of their heritage, and part of the horse. I would love to know where my Thoroughbred has been, and who he was...he is much too old to race, but I am nosey (his tattoo is too faded to read). He is my lifetime horse, and we have a bond between us...I feel I would have more understanding of him if I knew more about his past. Perhaps a contract could be made up with a 'no racing' clause. Of course, some people are going to break anything anyone could do to prevent the horse from racing or breeding. When any of us transfer ownership of horses, registered, or unregistered, we run the risk of someone down the line, not doing right by the horse. The only solution I can see with any guarantees, is to keep every horse...that would be unrealistic in many cases. We can make long drawn out contracts with every base covered, but those who have the tendency to get around things no matter what, will still go their merry way. We raise Quarter Horses, and we have an older mare...you would not believe the offers we have gotten on her papers, and we could keep the horse. The AQHA has just gone to genetic testing, and I do not know how that will curb this practice, but I'll bet the shady people will find ways around that, too. Caroline Kentuckiana Equine and Animal Rescue, Inc. ...dedicated to the animals CC40058@aol.com or Kyianaequ@aol.com http://msnhomepages.talkcity.com/NonProfitBlvd/kyianaequ/ ========== CC40058@aol.com ====== To: equinerescue@imagicomm.com From: "Alexis" Subject: Re: EQ-ResQ: Papers Date: Sat, 27 May 2000 21:36:01 -0400 I have a TB mare that I bought off the track and didn't have papers with her. They told us they didn't want her to race again. I was able to get her pedigree but I would like to breed her to a 1/4 horse for roping purposes. She is great at roping and barrel racing but if I was going to breed her I would like the foal to be registered under me. That way I have an upper hand if anything happens. Authority and insurance people out here tend to degrade non papered stock. Does anyone know of a way I could get these?? I have thought about calling the jockey club and saying they were burned in a fire! Any info would be greatly appreciated! Alexis ========== "Alexis" ====== Date: Sat, 27 May 2000 21:23:29 -0600 (MDT) To: equinerescue@imagicomm.com From: Pat Calloway Subject: Re: EQ-ResQ: Papers At 09:36 PM 5/27/00 -0400, Alexis wrote: >Does anyone know of a way I could get >these?? I have thought about calling the jockey club and saying they were >burned in a fire! Any info would be greatly appreciated! You'd have to get an affidavit from the people you bought her from as to them being burned in a fire and/or proof they were transferred to you at the time they were burned. The Jockey Club is pretty tough about replacing paperwork and they don't look kindly on fraud. You can't just call them up and tell them this, you have to file notarized affadavits in which you swear to the truth of what you are saying. You can read their rules here - rule 9 is what would apply in this case: http://home.jockeyclub.com/rules/rules.html You could always talk to the original owners and tell them what you just wrote to us here and see if they'd be agreeable to changing her ownership (which I'm guessing wasn't done if they never gave you the papers) into your name and giving you the papers. IMO, honesty is the best policy here. Pat Calloway, Equine Rescue Listowner epona@concentric.net (AZ) http://www.crt-stable.com/equinerescue ========== Pat Calloway ====== Date: Sat, 27 May 2000 21:24:30 -0600 (MDT) To: equinerescue@imagicomm.com From: Pat Calloway Subject: Re: EQ-ResQ: Papers At 05:28 AM 5/27/00 -0700, s.pel wrote: >would just be a few additional boxes to check when registering your horse. >Such as Not for raceing, not for breeding or for breeding only. This way >when a responsable breeder sees a flaw in in a horse they can be sure the >trait will not be carried through a string of babys that can all be traiced >through papers to their stallion. Well if it's a male, there's a way of eliminating his chances of breeding already. It's called gelding (& I wish spaying were as easy on a female horse!). Otherwise, how do you know that a particular problem won't straighten itself out or a horse might not turn out to be better than previously thought if you sell him/her as an ugly duckling yearling and later s/he turns into the beautiful swan? It's a costly proposition to breed a horse and raise the baby, so I think most people generally put some thought into it (yeah, yeah, I know not everyone does ). >Now, I wouldnt know how to go about convincing the powers that be how to >make these changes but, I am sure one of you folks out there must have some >ideas. What about petitions circulated at shows? I really doubt the Jockey Club would listen to a petition signed at a show. I don't think they listen a lot to the average Thoroughbred owner as it is sometimes! I would like to see them make the change that ownership could be transferred with a 'not for racing' provision though, but I think this is something that the Thoroughbred owners need to agitate for. I can't see them listening to 'outsiders' on this particular issue any more than say the Arabian or Paso Fino people would listen to 'outsiders' on their particular registration or show issues. It's a change that would have to come from within the group or organization, imo. Pat Calloway, Equine Rescue Listowner epona@concentric.net (AZ) http://www.crt-stable.com/equinerescue ========== Pat Calloway ====== To: equinerescue@imagicomm.com From: IPIConsult@aol.com Subject: Re: EQ-ResQ: Papers Date: Sun, 28 May 2000 11:37:55 EDT Dear Group: I had a wonderful 17 hand Irish Hunter (without papers) that I entered into numerous competitions in Austria (dressage, jumping, 3-day event) without ever the thought of needing any papers at all and won against many "registered" horses. I have often though that Americans worry too much about papers, and frequently miss the point of what a good horse can be regardless of papers. ========== IPIConsult@aol.com ====== To: equinerescue@imagicomm.com From: dlinkous@radix.net Subject: Re: EQ-ResQ: Papers Date: Sun, 28 May 2000 13:16:38 -0400 > I had a wonderful 17 hand Irish Hunter (without papers) that I entered >into numerous competitions in Austria (dressage, jumping, 3-day event) >without ever the thought of needing any papers at all and won against many >"registered" horses. I have often though that Americans worry too much about >papers, and frequently miss the point of what a good horse can be regardless >of papers. Any horse may be entered into those classes in this country. A Connemara pony was among the top dressage horse here for some time (I doubt you'd see that in Europe with its emphasis on size). However, we also hold a number of classes at otherwise open shows that are restricted to breed. Usually these are "hunter" classes, and in-hand classes. Also, each breed association holds their own shows. It is these classes that some people might want to enter their well conformed or good performing horse which no longer has papers. I have sent a message to the American Horse Show Assn., the PHR (Performance Horse Registry, which used to be restricted to TBs but is now open to other breeds/types) and the Jockey Club in which I detailed the problem and asked them if there was any way the Jockey Club could cooperate with the PHR in exchanging their papers for PHR papers and then taking the TB out of the JC registry entirely to prevent further racing. And I asked the AHSA if they would accept PRH papers describing the horse as a purebred TB for their TB classes. I doubt that this will go anywhere, as the paperwork would be too much. The Jockey Club has stringent rules and it takes a heck of a lot of paperwork and database control, which I wouldn't think they'd want to alter. I'm sure the PHR would love to have a flood of OTT TBs register, as they'd reap the registration fees. As for the AHSA, they also are a rather strict and old fashioned organization and I don't think they'd go along with or press for this unless the JC and PHR took the lead. Diana ========== dlinkous@radix.net ====== To: equinerescue@imagicomm.com From: IPIConsult@aol.com Subject: Re: EQ-ResQ: Papers Date: Mon, 29 May 2000 12:56:08 EDT In a message dated 5/28/00 11:22:23 AM Mountain Daylight Time, dlinkous@radix.net writes: << Any horse may be entered into those classes in this country. A Connemara pony was among the top dressage horse here for some time (I doubt you'd see that in Europe with its emphasis on size). >> -- Not at all, my trainer, Peter Lichtner-Hoyer, had rather small (15h) Sardinian horses (Italy) that he used for jumping & 3-day. He was twice in the Olympics. -- A friend in Alabama (formerly Long-Island), Mrs. Whitehurst, crossbred a Connemara pony with a TB for a horse that went to the Mexico City Olympics. -- And one of the finest displays of dressage that I've ever seen (in Europe) was on a Connemara pony and a young rider. I only wanted to point-out that Americans seem to be preoccupied by breeding (and papers) rather than looking at a horse as a friend and companion. ========== IPIConsult@aol.com ====== To: equinerescue@imagicomm.com From: dlinkous@radix.net Subject: Re: EQ-ResQ: Papers Date: Mon, 29 May 2000 13:25:56 -0400 >I only wanted to point-out that Americans seem to be preoccupied by breeding >(and papers) rather than looking at a horse as a friend and companion. I'm sure there are Europeans who regard breeding as very important and Americans who regard their horses as their companions. We could extend the whole discussion to the slaughter issue and say that if Europeans and Japanese didn't eat horse meat, there wouldn't be a market for it here, but the flip side of that arguement is that as long as there are people here willing to sell their horses to slaughter, then that market will be supplied from here (as well as from there). "There are 6.9 million horses in the U.S., including both commercial and recreational horses. 725,000 of those horses are involved in racing and race horse breeding, while 1,974,000 and 2,970,000 are used in showing and recreation, respectively. 1,262,800 are used in other activities, such as farm and ranch work, rodeo, polo, police work, etc." That is a quote from the American Horse Council. So, you see that 2,970,000 horses are not valued for breeding or show performance, but for "recreation", which I assume would include companionship. That's over 40% of our horses. And I'm sure that many show horses are shown at the lower levels and are viewed as friends. So, I guess I'm saying that to state that "Americans" this or that has to be inaccurate. One can only say "some Americans". There are all kinds of horse shows all over the country, and in many of them, breed is not important at all. I run a list for mustang owners, and those horses are generally of no breed at all, but some are shown in "open" shows and do very well. But believe me, those horses are definitely friends and companions. Diana ========== dlinkous@radix.net ====== Disclaimer: Please note that none of the information contained in these files is meant to be professional information. Consult your vet, attorney or other professional for their advice.