Disclaimer: This is not meant to be legal advice. Please contact a local attorney or your local law enforcement for the particulars in your area. To: equinerescue@MyList.net Date: Sun, 23 Aug 1998 22:08:35 -0500 Subject: EQ-ResQ: RE: Class Law Enforcement Issues From: trailsnd1@juno.com (Martin L Bass) Hello everyone, My name is Martin Bass. My wife Kathy and I are co-founders of Trail's End Equine Hospice. We are located in central Oklahoma. Pat has asked that I moderate the next class session concerning some of the Law Enforcement issues that may crop up as a result of your rescue attempts. First let me say that I am not a lawyer so any advice I may give should be checked out with your local law enforcement agencies. So much for the legal disclaimer! I thought we would start with what to do when you receive information about abuse, neglect or abandonment. In other words the "Investigation" phase. First you need to be dedicated to the cause. You must be prepared to take the responsibility of reporting the activity to the proper authorities and all that goes along with that report ie; sworn depositions, courtroom testimony and possibly retaliation by disgruntled defendants. You have decided to go for it, so now what do you do? Get your response kit together. You might ask just what is a response kit? Well, you will need a notebook, camera, film and a buddy to go with you. PLEASE check your local trespassing ordinances before you go. You can't assist the horses in need if your in jail. Try to get the person reporting the incident to you to assist you by filling out a written statement about what they saw and what action they have already taken, if any. Most don't want to get involved to the point of having to testify for fear of retaliation. You now have arrived at the location of the horse(s) in need of your assistance. Make notes of your exact location, ie; street address or detailed directions to the rural location that you are at. If there is a house on the property ask for permission to look at the horses. You don't have to tell them why, just that you like horses and would love to look at theirs. If you are denied access leave quietly. Don't draw a lot of attention to yourself at this point. If you can get photos without trespassing then by all means do so. Take both color and black & white. Some judges will not let jurors view color photos of gruesome scenes so have your black & white handy. Write down the names and addresses of all people that you talk with. If you have a genuine case of abuse, neglect or abandonment now is the time to seek assistance from Law Enforcement. Remember the more documentation you have the easier it is to convince the Police, Sheriff or Trooper to take action. Okay now some of you long time rescues jump in here and keep the ball rolling, we are all interested in how you handle the investigation phase in your state. We'll let this roll for a few days then tackle any other issue related to Law Enforcement issues. Martin Bass trailsnd@swbell.net El Reno, Ok ============================================================ From: WCarol7723@aol.com Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1998 06:32:32 EDT To: equinerescue@MyList.net, trailsnd1@juno.com Subject: Re: EQ-ResQ: RE: Class Law Enforcement Issues Hi and thanks for the information: I don't THINK I will ever be able to actually start a horse rescue myself but DO want to be prepared what to do if I DO see abuse and have a question here. In a message dated 98-08-23 23:10:41 EDT, you write: << Don't draw a lot of attention to yourself at this point. If you can get photos without trespassing then by all means do so. >> Does this mean that you could stand OFF the property, say on the other side of the fence, and take all pictures you want whether they WANT you to or not? In other words, if they come out of the house ranting and raving but do not have a gun, you could still take the pictures as long as you weren't trespassing? (And in the process get pictures of their ugly MEAN faces showing what kind of people they are?) Same applies to VIDEO cameras? Just wondering...don't know if I'd be that BRAVE or not but do get some temporary backbone when I get MAD enough about animals being mistreated. THANKS, CAROL and the JUDGE ============================================================ To: WCarol7723@aol.com Cc: equinerescue@MyList.net Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1998 15:46:17 -0500 Subject: Re: EQ-ResQ: RE: Class Law Enforcement Issues From: trailsnd1@juno.com (Martin L Bass) On 08-24-98 Carol wrote <"does this mean that you could stand off the property - and take all the pictures you want?> Yes, in most states I am sure you would be okay as long as you are well OFF the property when you take the pictures. Telephoto lenses come in very handy for this purpose. As far as taking pictures of the offenders that is another matter. Some states have passed laws that restrict taking photos of someone without his/her permission. Be sure to check with your local authorities before you get too far into the picture process. Remember to use both black & white and color film. Video cameras are nice but can be limited in what quality pictures you get and whether the Judge will allow the tape in the courtroom. The newest rage is the Digital Camera. These enable you to download the pictures into your computer then print them on a color printer. You can pick and choose the right poses with this method plus you can share with the rest of us on the net. I hope this answered your question. The rest of you lets get into the discussion, keep the questions and comments flowing. Martin Bass @ trailsnd1@juno.com ============================================================ From: "Bill Adams" To: Subject: RE: EQ-ResQ: RE: Class Law Enforcement Issues Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1998 19:57:47 -0400 Martin, I'm looking forward to this class discussion. I have a couple of questions and comments about what you have written: Try to get the person reporting the incident to you to assist you by filling out a written statement about what they saw and what action they have already taken, if any. Most don't want to get involved to the point of having to testify for fear of retaliation. You now have arrived at the location of the horse(s) in need of your assistance. Make notes of your exact location, ie; street address or detailed directions to the rural location that you are at. If there is a house on the property ask for permission to look at the horses. You don't have to tell them why, just that you like horses and would love to look at theirs. If you are denied access leave quietly. Don't draw a lot of attention to yourself at this point. If you can get photos without trespassing then by all means do so. Take both color and black & white. Some judges will not let jurors view color photos of gruesome scenes so have your black & white handy. Write down the names and addresses of all people that you talk with. If you have a genuine case of abuse, neglect or abandonment now is the time to seek assistance from Law Enforcement. Remember the more documentation you have the easier it is to convince the Police, Sheriff or Trooper to take action. >>>>>> First my questions: 1. Do you suggest trying to contact the owner of the horses to get information about the horses' condition that may be relevant to the complaint? (is the horse sick, was it just purchased from a kill pen, etc.) If so, at what point would you do that? 2. Do you suggest trying to talk to neighbors of the property for background information about how long the situation has existed and so forth? If so, at what point? Now for my comments: I would recommend getting a good bit of video as it provides excellent documentation of the conditions of the animal(s) and of the surroundings. Maybe it won't be admitted into court, but it can still be used to substantiate the situation as possibly being of criminal nature. Pan slowly around the pasture so that all physical features of the place can be seen. Narrate only enough to emphasize the important points: "The fencing is in a ramshackle state. There is no shelter available to the animals. There is no evidence of hay or grain or clean water for the horses." Pictures are ESSENTIAL. You will need 4 or 5 pictures of each horse showing the horse from front, back and sides. If there are any special concerns (open wounds, misshapen hooves) you will need close-ups of those. Arm yourself with sworn affidavits from witnesses to the situation, especially those people with horse knowledge. A proper affidavit should state the facts about the situation: "On visits made on 23 consecutive days, there was no hay or grain visible" rather than "This guy never feeds his horses".) Describe the condition of the horses in the same factual terms. ("The horses' coats are unkempt and the hooves are ragged and broken. One horse has thick green discharge from its left nostril. This horse has an open wound approximately 4" long running from the top of its shoulder towards the barrel of the horse.") By the time you have observed the horses for a reasonable period of time, you should add your own affidavit. The affidavits should be typed, signed, and notarized. With all of the above, you should be able to convince the authorities that you know what you are talking about and that something truly needs to be looked into further. Elizabeth Adams Lexington KY ============================================================ To: equinerescue@MyList.net, wadams@gte.net Cc: equinerescue@MyList.net Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1998 21:47:48 -0500 Subject: Re: EQ-ResQ: RE: Class Law Enforcement Issues From: trailsnd1@juno.com (Martin L Bass) Elizabeth wanted to know about By all means try to contact the owners as soon as possible. They may be willing to cooperate and just give up ownership if they are unable to care for the horses. However, if the owners have a reputation of animal cruelty you may be wise to steer clear of them until you can get assistance from Law Enforcement. Neighbors are always a good source of valuable information but as with most concerned citizens they will talk to you but are reluctant to give sworn statements for fear of retaliation. You bring up several good points about the photography aspect of the investigation process. It is obvious that you have done this before. I would suggest that you also keep a photo log listing dates, times, photo # and subject matter along with the photographers name. One more comment before I sign off for the evening. Be very careful around the scene that you are investigating. Look around frequently. Do not let someone approach you unnoticed. This can mean the difference in coming home in one piece or by way of the hospital. People who engage in animal cruelty frequently advance to human cruelty. Beware and be safe! Martin Bass @ trailsnd1@juno.com ============================================================ From: rockyroads@exchange.lowe.org Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1998 21:56:16 -0500 Subject: EQ-ResQ: class law enforcement To: equinerescue@MyList.net Regarding working with law enforcement... Please consider-before you get upset that an agency is not helping you make sure that they have the authority and legal obligation to do so. In my area the Humane Society is a private org with no legal authority to do anything. They deal in the placement of owner surrendered animals and in some cases are the housing for animals taken by Animal Control. Animal Control is usually a county or city run org with enforcement officers who are authorized to sieze animals, get warrants issue citations etc. There is some debate in my state but the general consenus is that Animal control is required by law to deal with dogs the licensing of, picking up strays, dealing with dogs who destroy livestock. They deal in cats just cause they do. They are not legally bound to deal in large livestock. You need to find out who has the legal authority/obligation in your area to investigate abuse of livestock. Way before you need something go to that person and introduce yourself. Ask what that agency does about neglect of livestock, find out what their level of expertise is, ask to have the law explained to you the way they see it, then offer your services. Please remember that just because someone does not keep their animals the same way you do does not make it abuse/neglect in the eyes of the law. To some a horse outside of a heated stall in winter is horrible to others a three sided shelter is enough. I frequently gets complaints from people who tell about a horse at deaths door. When I get there I find a horse in working weight. Not everyone believes fat is the best color. Get your facts straight your credibility is at stake. If you have no facts just say so "hey I saw this horse from the road, it looks pretty skinny but I don't know anything about the horse" then let the investigator look into it. Offer to mentor people who are being investigated. Many times it is a lack of knowledge that puts these horses at risk. I have many owners tell me that they have asked all their horse friends and have 20 answers about what to do with the horse to help. Usually they try one thing and when the horse looks no better in a week they try something else. Nobody told them how long it would take. Many don't know good hay from bad they take the word of the hay dealer or farmer. Someone with extensive horse knowledge who could work with these people, teach them, be there when the vet is to ask the right questions and translate the answers would go a long way to making responsible owners out of these people, not everyone with a skinny horse is a horrible person and you must keep your emotions in check. I am trying to set up a mentoring program right now along with a packet of information to give people that will explain good hay proper worming, hoofcare etc. Michelle Richardson Marcellus, MI ============================================================ ------------------------------------------------------------ From: rockyroads@exchange.lowe.org Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1998 21:35:22 -0500 Subject: EQ-ResQ: Class law enforcement/investigation To: equinerescue@MyList.net Hi all, Regarding investigation and dealing with law enforcement... I am in a unique position because I am law enforcement (Deputy Sheriff) and do the cruelty/neglect of large livestock for the department. We also have a county Animal Control Agency that does some investigation but I am trying to get all of it sent to me. Some things that I do that alot of orgs won't is I deal in anonymous complaints. The department has a 1-800 tip line for reporting crimes that is just an answering machine. By whatever source I get a complaint I have the authority to come directly to your door to investigate. If I am refused the ability to inspect horses (has never happened) I can get a search warrant to enter the property. As a police officer anything I can see from the street or a neighbors property is not considered a "search". I have had times when I can not find the property/horse owner at home and have gone to a neighbor to ask to walk on their property to see and take photos. I don't need a warrant to seize any animal I can see legally and that is in a life threatening position (would die before Mon am if on a weekend) If I do need to get a search warrant no problem, a quick trip to the Prosecuting attys office and then to the judge and I am all set. I have no trouble with either office getting what I need. Due to the fact that I am in a very rural county and no organized rescue exists the siezing of animals is left for really dire times. Mostly the horses are put on "farm watch". Owners are required to engage the services of a vet to do a work-up on the horses. They are required to follow vets instructions to the letter, to allow me to talk to the vet about the progress of the animals, not to sell, move, give away or dispose of any animal without my permission and allow free and warrantless access to their horses for follow-up. I take photos each time I am there and date them so we can compare the horses progress from the last time. They are advised that if at anytime they do not follow the instructions of the vet, the horse does not make progress or they deny me access the animals will be siezed. After the horse is deemed to be in good health I do once a year follow-ups to each farm. The follow-ups during the crisis period are decided based on the condition of the horse. Michelle Richardson Marcellus, MI ============================================================ From: Tara Scholtz To: equinerescue@MyList.net Subject: EQ-ResQ: Videotaping Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1998 08:17:53 -0400 (Eastern Daylight Time) FWIW: If you want to use video as a means to document abuse, make sure the audio is OFF. You're more likely to be able to use it as admissible evidence since there will be no transmission of sound. Current laws in *many* states regarding privacy (for now) only include the recording of sound (that includes video with sound). The current legal system has not caught up with video being taken without permission provided the sound is off. (I believe, with sound, it falls under wiretapping laws and is thus inadmissible without permission.) ---------------------- Tara Scholtz ts94@umail.umd.edu ============================================================ From: rockyroads@exchange.lowe.org Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1998 11:11:36 -0500 Subject: EQ-ResQ: class-response to Elizabeth Adams ? To: equinerescue@MyList.net Elizabeth Adams asked... what if owner can't afford vet? Sometimes things can be worked out with a vet for paymet plan or donated services. I have not had anyone tell me they can't afford vet, just that they didn't want to or didn't realize the horse was in such bad shape. I think just like when you try to put weight on a horse and you see it every day it is hard to "see" the weight gain, the reverse is true for people who watch weight fall off a horse. It gets a little skinnier every day and they just don't see the whole picture. Some have consulted with every so called horse expert and really believe they have done everything they can and horse still will not gain weight. What is my authortiy to do this? State law defines abuse/neglect in my state, if the animals fall under the states definition of neglect then I could sieze the animal. This is a program the owner agrees to participate in so the animal is not siezed. What if owner fails to comply? If I had the legal right to seize the animal to begin with then I would get a search warrant based on starting condition of the animal, the recomendations of vet, and what parts of the plan were not followed. As far as refusing to let me re-check the animals ie warrentless entry. If there is an open ivestigation (I keep all mine active until cleared by a vet) then the owner could be considered to be hindering a criminal investigation which is a crime in Michigan. I do not make visits without the courtesy of calling, this does not mean that I am just going to show up and wander around someones property. Hope that clears up the questions Michelle Richardson Marcellus, MI ============================================================ From: SJCECCHINI@aol.com Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1998 23:16:38 EDT To: equinerescue@MyList.net, ts94@umail.umd.edu Subject: Re: EQ-ResQ: Videotaping Just to let everyone know.... After checking with my police officer hubby he has said that in CT you CAN videotape with the audio on and it is still admissable (sp?) in court. Now I'm not sure if that is only with the person's knowledge or if you could do it from across the street. I will see if I can find out more - since this is something i would need to know if i come across any abuse. Take Care and keep up the good work out there! Jackie (still horseless in CT) ============================================================ Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1998 20:30:17 -0700 To: equinerescue@MyList.net From: Pat Calloway Subject: EQ-ResQ: CLASS: LEO/Videotaping At 11:16 PM 8/26/98 EDT, SJCECCHINI@aol.com wrote: >Just to let everyone know.... >After checking with my police officer hubby he has said that in CT you CAN >videotape with the audio on and it is still admissable (sp?) in court. Now >I'm not sure if that is only with the person's knowledge or if you could do >it from across the street. I will see if I can find out more - since this is >something i would need to know if i come across any abuse. (I'm adding "CLASS" to the subject line so that these points don't get lost or deleted by those interested in the legal/law enforcement discussion.) In some states, it's legal if one party has the knowledge of taping audio (as in a telephone conversation). Bottom line is that it's best to find out in your specific state/city/county. ============================================================ Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1998 20:35:32 -0700 To: equinerescue@MyList.net From: Pat Calloway Subject: EQ-ResQ: CLASS: LEO/Investigation A question for Michelle and Marvin.... and any others with law enforcement experience or Significant Others they can ask. In the past such things as a diary or journal that chronicle specifics of abuse, neglect or other activities have been useful in prosecuting criminals. Would you recommend something like that and if so, what are some of the things that you would suggest to make it effective? I'd think dates/times, who, what, when, where - all the basics of good journalism would be the starting point.... ============================================================ From: BLRYSTROM@aol.com Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1998 01:58:34 EDT To: equinerescue@MyList.net, epona@concentric.net Subject: Re: EQ-ResQ: CLASS: LEO/Investigation In a message dated 8/26/98 10:37:37 PM Central Daylight Time, epona@concentric.net writes: << In the past such things as a diary or journal that chronicle specifics of abuse, neglect or other activities have been useful in prosecuting criminals. Would you recommend something like that and if so, what are some of the things that you would suggest to make it effective? >> pat, this is a stupid rule, but many states still do not allow typewritten /computer journals to be admissable. they want them to be handwritten. dawn ============================================================ Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1998 01:05:54 -0700 To: equinerescue@MyList.net From: Pat Calloway Subject: Re: EQ-ResQ: CLASS: LEO/Investigation At 01:58 AM 8/27/98 EDT, BLRYSTROM@aol.com wrote: > >this is a stupid rule, but many states still do not allow typewritten >/computer journals to be admissable. they want them to be handwritten. Good point, Dawn. Also a typewritten/computer journal could be easily altered whereas a handwritten journal would be more difficult to change facts/data, etc. So guys, buy a few cheapie spiral notebooks while they're on sale for back to school! With all that can be done with photographs with the use of a computer these days, I wonder how admissible digital photos would be? ============================================================ From: BLRYSTROM@aol.com Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1998 09:03:16 EDT To: equinerescue@MyList.net, epona@concentric.net Subject: Re: EQ-ResQ: CLASS: LEO/Investigation In a message dated 8/27/98 3:07:28 AM Central Daylight Time, epona@concentric.net writes: << With all that can be done with photographs with the use of a computer these days, I wonder how admissible digital photos would be? >> pat, i was wondering the exact same thing. i have one of those little digital camera eyes that goes on a nintendo gameboy and it is great for altering things. i got it for my neice (and kept it for myself, i had so much fun). i think the best bet would be to use a regular camera and make sure that the film developers type the developing date on the back. plus, using a camera that imprints the date on the front would be a good choice to me. then you have the dates filmed and developed and there would be less argument that it had been altered. dawn ============================================================ From: rockyroads@exchange.lowe.org Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1998 11:19:10 -0500 Subject: EQ-ResQ: class: law enforcement To: equinerescue@MyList.net Regarding notetaking: Check with your local prosc. atty. Not only do you have to contend with state law but also the whim of each judge. There are judges that run their courtroom the way they want and it would take a trip to the state Supreme Court to change them. No point in fighting more battles than you have to. In law enforcement we take lots of notes, usually in a little spiral notebook. We take these notes and use them to create a written report that becomes an offical document. In court it is possible to refer to your report to refresh your memory as what you wrote is considered more accurate than what you remember. Sometimes notes are also admitted as evidence. Use caution... if you need your notes/diary to refresh your memory or if they are going to be admitted as evidence remember... All the notes will be admitted not just the page you needed, once in evidence the defense atty gets to look at them also and he can go to any page he wants. Make sure that you don't scribble, write your grocery list or make any comments that you wouldn't want to be a matter of public record. My suggestion would be to keep a diary even if it never becomes evidence it will be usefull to you to privately refresh your memory before court and to show the prosc. atty a history if you are being the affiant on a search warrant. Use a wirebound notebook that pages can't be easily removed from and never remove pages. Use a seperate notebook for each investigation. Date each entry, use ink not pencil, never write anything emotional only factual. make sure it can be easily read. I would not use the diary to take notes at the scene, take notes on a seperate sheet of paper and in the quiet when you are thinking about what you are writing and in a good place to write keep the diary up to date. If you take photos log them with date time place subject how you got them (tele lens from neighbors property) then assign each one a number and put the number of the photo in your diary. If your photos are used in court you will be able to look up the number and give the exact information about it. Michelle Richardson Marcellus, MI ============================================================ From: Janis.Comstock-Jones@ecr.net To: equinerescue@MyList.net Date: 27 Aug 1998 15:37:36 EDT Subject: EQ-ResQ: Journals & Records EQ>this is a stupid rule, but many states still do not allow typewritten EQ>/computer journals to be admissable. they want them to be handwritten. Records Management notes (a freebie ): It is best to keep such handwritten journals in indelible pen or pencil. I don't see many indelible pencils, but pens are everywhere these days...just look for pens marked, "permanent ink." Those nice decorative ceramic point roller balls and the gel pens both fall into that category, as do many other products. If you make a mistake and must correct it, draw a single line through the mistake, so it can still be read. In the white space, put your initials and the date in mmddyyyy format, like this: 08261998 Have a peer review the journal for accuracy, then initial and date the bottom with "reviewed" noted. Somewhere in your training materials or rules or other working documents, include a statement of how the journal is kept and reviewed. Ask your lawyer what the retension period should be on those journals, and add that to the statement. I think most documents involved in court cases must not be destroyed while the case is active, so you might want to file those active files separately from things that do not go to court. Janis (SPHO-Ohio) ============================================================ Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1998 19:32:49 -0700 To: equinerescue@MyList.net From: Pat Calloway Subject: Re: EQ-ResQ: class: law enforcement At 08:30 PM 8/27/98 -0500, Martin L Bass wrote: >Michelle mentioned one thing in her post that probably needs to be >expanded on a little. What ever form you choose to keep your field notes >in be very careful not to include ANY personal feelings. Do not put down >in writing or on video or for that matter tape recordings, that the >people responsible are dirt bags, scum of the earth, sickos or anything >else derogatory that might turn out to be embarrassing to you in open >court. I know it is hard to control the emotions when you see some of >the cruelty that humanity puts upon animals, however you must maintain a >professional manor in order to lend credibility to your case. Just the facts. Cold, hard facts. Vent to a trusted friend or family member privately, but be careful who you blow off steam to and where, even here on this list - you don't know who might be reading it. I suppose you could do it here without naming names - and being very, very general - nothing specific enough to identify a case. Martin mentions tape recordings and I know some folks use those little hand held audio tape recorders for impressions, notes, etc. Be aware that your notes and recordings could be subpoenaed, so keep emotions out of it as much as possible. Sometimes I feel like legal proceedings are like one big game of Mother May I or Simon Says - if you don't it exactly right, even if the other party is guilty and did it on Main Street in front of a crowd that included the Pope, the guilty guy could still be freed on a technicality and walk. ============================================================ To: equinerescue@MyList.net Cc: equinerescue@MyList.net Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1998 20:30:09 -0500 Subject: Re: EQ-ResQ: class: law enforcement From: trailsnd1@juno.com (Martin L Bass) Janis, Michelle, Dawn and Pat, You have all brought up some very good points on documentation to prepare for presentation to the DA for review and the filing of charges. Michelle mentioned one thing in her post that probably needs to be expanded on a little. What ever form you choose to keep your field notes in be very careful not to include ANY personal feelings. Do not put down in writing or on video or for that matter tape recordings, that the people responsible are dirt bags, scum of the earth, sickos or anything else derogatory that might turn out to be embarrassing to you in open court. I know it is hard to control the emotions when you see some of the cruelty that humanity puts upon animals, however you must maintain a professional manor in order to lend credibility to your case. I know the hurricane has had everyone scrambling the past few days and I would like to say that all of us landlocked equine lovers have been keeping our fingers crossed for all of you on the coast. Now that things are calming down some, how about some input from some of you that deal in the confiscation of abused horses. How do you go about getting the courts to agree to let you take custody. What forms of documentation do you use? Do you have specific forms that you just fill in the blanks or do you end up writing a term paper to be presented to the courts? Martin Bass @ trailsnd1@juno.com ============================================================ From: "Bill Adams" To: Subject: RE: EQ-ResQ: Class law enforcement/investigation Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1998 22:37:17 -0400 Michelle wrote: Owners are required to engage the services of a vet to do a work-up on the horses. They are required to follow vets instructions to the letter, to allow me to talk to the vet about the progress of the animals, not to sell, move, give away or dispose of any animal without my permission and allow free and warrantless access to their horses for follow-up. ------ 1. What do you do when the owner says they can't afford a vet? 2. What gives you the authority to do this -- state law or local ordinance? 3. If the owner fails to comply with any part of this, what happens? Elizabeth Adams Lexington KY ============================================================ To: equinerescue@MyList.net Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1998 21:50:04 -0500 Subject: EQ-ResQ: CLASS: Law Enforcement From: trailsnd1@juno.com (Martin L Bass) Hello again everyone, The posts seem to have died out on the areas of Investigation and Documentation so lets move on to the next step! Filing charges and Prosecution. Once you have completed your investigation it is time to see your friendly District Attorney. These guys will absolutely love you if you bring them a well documented case that they know without a doubt from the start that they are going to win. In our part of the US, District Attorneys are elected officials and their conviction rate means votes at election time. So how do you go about filing? First make sure you have all your documentation put together in a well organized manor. Three ring binders make it easy to look at all the documents plus they can be easily removed for copying. Photo copy any photographs and put the copies in the binder. Keep the originals for presentation at the time (if it comes) that you have to take the stand and testify. Some DA's may require you to hand over the original photos so in that case keep copies for yourself. When you schedule your appointment with the DA be sure to put your best Sunday go to meetin clothes on and try your best to present a professional image. Know your stuff and present your case with confidence. If things start going wrong do not lose your cool. Ask the DA what you need to give him/her to get the charges filed, then get it or do it. Once the DA accepts the charges he/she will present the facts to a magistrate who if he/she feels the charge is a good one will issue an arrest warrant for the offending party(s). The rest is up to the Law Enforcement agencies until trail time. This procedure may differ in some states but the basics are almost always the same. How about some of the other areas of the country. do you handle it close to our way or is it drastically different. Martin Bass Trail's End Equine Hospice @ trailsnd1@juno.com ============================================================ From: Imajiner@aol.com Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1998 00:27:54 EDT To: equinerescue@MyList.net, trailsnd1@juno.com Subject: Re: EQ-ResQ: CLASS: Law Enforcement Martin: I for one have Law enforcement background and the DA does not scare me much to date. I have worked in loss protection, and have seen both sides of the scales. At best, I have lost time and money, and very little self respect. But the Factor of pay off's" is not the best of lessons, would you be kind to brief these fine ladies of the ratio's of loss to "guilty" ratios? Donna ============================================================ To: equinerescue@MyList.net Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1998 21:10:50 -0500 Subject: Re: EQ-ResQ: CLASS: Law Enforcement From: trailsnd1@juno.com (Martin L Bass) Donna asked that I talk about "guilty" ratios. Basically there are three categories after the charges are presented. 1. Charges accepted, suspect tried before Judge and jury. 2. Charges accepted, suspect pleads guilty before trial and is sentenced by a Judge. 3. Charges not accepted. As far as my experience with the court system goes Category 3 is about 25%. Category 2 is approximately 70% and Category 1 is the remaining 5%. The vast majority of offenders do not want to go before a Judge and Jury. Juries tend to favor the victims, especially in animal cruelty cases. Court trials are long drawn out affairs and are quite expensive, most can't afford the cost. The majority of lawyers will recommend to their clients that they plead guilty in exchange for a lighter penalty. This is commonly referred to as "Plea Bargaining". Usually if you get a Category 3, charges not accepted it is due to weak evidence and the DA does not think he/she can win the case. They may send you back out for more documentation or they might tell you to just forget the whole thing. Which ever way the DA chooses to go don't lose your cool. You may have lost the battle but there is a much bigger war going on and you just might win the next round if you haven't burned the bridges behind you. Unless someone else has questions about an area of Law Enforcement that Pat and I have not thought of this is the last of the sections I have prepared. Feel free to add to this discussion and if at anytime a question arises that I can help with please post it or e-mail me privately at trailsnd1@juno.com OR trailsnd@swbell.net Pat, thanks for letting me be a part of the CLASS portion of this list. It has been fun. Martin Bass Trail's End Equine Hospice ============================================================ Date: Wed, 02 Sep 1998 19:52:52 -0700 To: equinerescue@MyList.net, trailsnd1@juno.com (Martin L Bass) From: Pat Calloway Subject: Re: EQ-ResQ: CLASS: Law Enforcement In-Reply-To: <19980902.211051.-743709.1.trailsnd1@juno.com> At 09:10 PM 9/2/98 -0500, Martin L Bass wrote: > >Pat, thanks for letting me be a part of the CLASS portion of this list. >It has been fun. > Thank YOU so much, Martin! I appreciate you leading this Class! Think that I'll just let folks catch up any questions on Law Enforcement, etc until after the Labor Day holiday this coming Monday. I need to get the other past classes edited and up on the EQ-ResQ Home Page and I'm sure a lot of folks may be busy on on vacation. Thanks again to those that have participated in the classes by either leading or throwing in their two cents. Pat Calloway, Equine Rescue/Creatures Listowner epona@concentric.net (AZ) http://pages.prodigy.com/equinerescue/home.htm http://pages.prodigy.com/equinerescue/creature.htm ============================================================ From: Imajiner@aol.com Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1998 02:35:39 EDT To: equinerescue@MyList.net, trailsnd1@juno.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: EQ-ResQ: CLASS: Law Enforcement Martin: Thanks for the honesty. Way too many people go off half cocked and expect a guilty verdict to just appear. Even with the best videos, witnesses depositions, and clear photos, and good creditable witnesses that appear in court. The scales do not always tilt down to the abuser that has money and power. People wonder why the Humane societies do NOT become involved and make solid cases, If they understood the sheer loss of man power, If "said" agent has to bear weight on a case, and the heat they take from the higher powers that be, ( For loss of their time out of office) They would understand why some try to stand back and "pick" their battles. Donna ============================================================ From: Janis.Comstock-Jones@ecr.net To: equinerescue@MyList.net Date: 3 Sep 1998 10:51:38 EDT Subject: Re: EQ-ResQ: CLASS: Law Enforcement Interesting note on the guilty ratios. I wonder if the severity of the charge impacts the percentages any, but I'd guess there is no way to measure this. Maybe people from the different states could comment on this...if animal cruelty is a low-level misdemeanor or a higher degree of misdemeanor, do the courts pay may more attention in the areas where it's a more serious crime? Is there anywhere it's a felony? Janis (SPHO--Ohio) http://www.ecr.net/gallifry/spho.htm ============================================================ To: equinerescue@MyList.net, Janis.Comstock-Jones@ecr.net Date: Fri, 4 Sep 1998 19:58:50 -0500 Subject: Re: EQ-ResQ: CLASS: Law Enforcement From: trailsnd1@juno.com (Martin L Bass) Janis, In Oklahoma animal cruelty is a Felony crime. It is not filed often but the option is there. And yes the seriousness of the crime has a big impact on how the case is prosecuted. Martin Bass Trail's End Equine Hospice trailsnd@swbell.net or trailsnd1@juno.com ============================================================ Date: Fri, 04 Sep 1998 23:05:53 -0400 From: cabblcf Organization: Equine Placement Network http://members.tripod.com/~SueE/HB1029.html To: equinerescue@MyList.net, Martin L Bass Subject: Re: EQ-ResQ: CLASS: Law Enforcement > In Oklahoma animal cruelty is a Felony crime. It is not filed often How long has it been a felony crime? Find it surprising that a western state has it has a felony. Is there less prosecution because it is a felony? What is the average sentence? Chris ============================================================ To: equinerescue@MyList.net, Janis.Comstock-Jones@ecr.net Date: Fri, 4 Sep 1998 19:58:50 -0500 Subject: Re: EQ-ResQ: CLASS: Law Enforcement From: trailsnd1@juno.com (Martin L Bass) Janis, In Oklahoma animal cruelty is a Felony crime. It is not filed often but the option is there. And yes the seriousness of the crime has a big impact on how the case is prosecuted. Martin Bass Trail's End Equine Hospice trailsnd@swbell.net or trailsnd1@juno.com ============================================================ From: BLRYSTROM@aol.com Date: Sat, 5 Sep 1998 09:31:41 EDT To: equinerescue@MyList.net, cabblcf@epix.net Subject: Re: EQ-ResQ: CLASS: Law Enforcement In a message dated 9/4/98 9:43:39 PM Central Daylight Time, cabblcf@epix.net writes: << In Oklahoma animal cruelty is a Felony crime. It is not filed often How long has it been a felony crime? Find it surprising that a western state has it has a felony. Is there less prosecution because it is a felony? What is the average sentence? >> arkansas too in exceptional cases ============================================================ To: equinerescue@MyList.net, BLRYSTROM@aol.com Cc: cabblcf@epix.net Date: Sat, 5 Sep 1998 10:49:34 -0500 Subject: Re: EQ-ResQ: CLASS: Law Enforcement From: trailsnd1@juno.com (Martin L Bass) I have been in law enforcement over 18 years and it, to my knowledge, has always been a felony in Oklahoma. Unlike Texas where there are different degrees of felony crimes, Oklahoma has varying punishments upon conviction but a felony is a felony. I have found that most cases are "plead out" to a lesser non felony charge such as animal neglect. It is a shame but the court system is so overloaded that the DA will do anything to lessen the load. Martin Bass Trail's End Equine Hospice trailsnd@swbell.net or trailsnd1@juno.com ============================================================ From: "Bill Adams" To: Subject: RE: EQ-ResQ: CLASS: Law Enforcement Date: Sat, 5 Sep 1998 12:24:32 -0400 There are certain situations under which Kentucky will consider animal abuse to be a felony. I believe that those exceptions are for things like holding dog fights and cock fights. Short of that, you can do practically anything else to an animal and only be subject to a misdemeanor. Elizabeth Adams Lexington ============================================================ Date: Sat, 05 Sep 1998 10:05:02 -0700 To: equinerescue@MyList.net From: Pat Calloway Subject: EQ-ResQ: CLASS: Law Enforcement There are a few useful links to equine law/law sites on the Equine Rescue List Home Page under the Resources section. Some of those are: http://www.law.utexas.edu/dawson/index.htm - mostly focuses on safety and legal liability issues, but has information on cruelty laws at http://www.law.utexas.edu/dawson/cases/cruel/cruel.htm and what probably applies the most in this particular class, cruelty statutes by state at http://www.law.utexas.edu/dawson/cruelty/cruelty.htm http://www.horselaw.com/ - this is primarily a site to advertise a law firm, but they do have some interesting information on horse law and specific cases. If anyone has any sites that they've found useful, please share with the rest of us! ============================================================ Date: Sat, 05 Sep 1998 20:46:13 -0400 From: cabblcf To: equinerescue@MyList.net Subject: Re: EQ-ResQ: CLASS: Law Enforcement Bill Adams wrote: > > There are certain situations under which Kentucky will consider animal abuse > to be a felony. And in PA(asahmed to say I live here) it is nothing more than a summary offense. Just like getting a speeding ticket. Maybe that is why we are home to the Labor Day Pigeon Shoot, Canned Hunts, Puppy Mills, Dog Bunchers, New Holland & the dragging of downed cows is considered normal Chris ============================================================ Date: Sat, 05 Sep 1998 15:55:39 -0700 Subject: EQ-ResQ: State laws From: "Tiare" To: equinerescue@MyList.net If anyone has any sites that they've found useful, please share with the rest of us! These might be useful ..... State Law - http://lawlib.wuacc.edu/washlaw/uslaw/statelaw.html this site is via a private law firm but they have cool "links" http://www.callahan-law.com/lawlinks.html Livestock Law http://www.law.utexas.edu/dawson/fence/fnc_menu.htm Everything Horses - http://edge.edge.net/~jacktuck/horses.htm If you want to search public records of abusers, etc. - http://www.knowx.com/ Hope these help someone.. Tiare Horse Haven, Inc. Oregon ============================================================ To: equinerescue@MyList.net Date: Fri, 4 Sep 1998 23:11:08 -0400 Subject: Re: EQ-ResQ: CLASS: Law Enforcement From: lisaviger@juno.com (Lisa A Remi-Viger) <> What are "canned hunts" and "dog bunchers?" BTW, here in MI, there is also a provision for felony animal cruelty. The former owners of the Davison, MI horses that were seized last year (a few of which are still available for adoption) were convicted of felony animal torture, even a step above felony cruelty, with a large fine and 4 years jail time, along with reimbursing the rescue who took care of the horses, and never being allowed to keep horses again. Another guy here nearby in Jackson, tried to bury his dog alive (along with bashing her in the head with a shovel). Thankfully a neighbor saw it and he's now serving 2 1/2 yrs. in the State Prison. Both these stories garnered front page news headlines, the dog had almost 1,000 people call in offering to adopt her (beautiful German Shepherd), and the horses generated a lot of education in equine abuse as well as a lot of donations to the rescue and people from all over volunteering to come in and help. Too bad there are some states (like PA) which do not have these animal protections in their laws. I think some would argue that it's because some states are heavy into agriculture, but we've got plenty of that here in MI. Heck, our whole little town is pretty much surrounded by corn fields and our new property is kitty corner (upwind, I think...hope) from a huge dairy farm. So I wonder what causes the disparity between laws in different states? This has been my own observation, and someone correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems where there are very large Amish communities, there is much more animal abuse and much less stringent laws. Lisa Viger Cricket (12 yo STB gelding, Sadie (20+ ASB mare), Ricki (21 yo Appy POA) ============================================================ Date: Sun, 06 Sep 1998 06:33:53 -0400 From: Sue Emanovsky & John B Foster To: equinerescue@MyList.net, lisaviger@juno.com Subject: EQ-ResQ: Law enforcement Too bad there are some states (like PA) which do not have these animal protections in their laws. If you look at PA's laws they really aren't that bad. Biggest problem is those with enforcement powers turning a blind eye. Really very sad when nobody wants to put in a little extra work and enforce them. New Hampshires laws are extremely antiquated too. Most of the laws and case law date from the 1920's to 40's when horses were work animals. They did update the cruelty statute about 5 yrs ago now to include torture being a felony but I'm not aware of any convictions using that section. Most pled to the lesser misdemeanor offenses and the prosecuting attorneys bought it. A kitten had to be beaten and set on fire in order to even get the law through. Media picked up on it and ran with it. Sick buggers were only caught because they bragged about it in a bar. Sue http://www.cyberportal.net/buddy ============================================================ Date: Sun, 06 Sep 1998 07:45:22 -0700 From: Doug Wyllie To: equinerescue@MyList.net, cabblcf Subject: Re: EQ-ResQ: CLASS: Law Enforcement cabblcf wrote: > > Bill Adams wrote: > > > > There are certain situations under which Kentucky will consider animal abuse > > to be a felony. > > And in PA(asahmed to say I live here) it is nothing more than a summary > offense. Just like getting a speeding ticket. Maybe that is why we are > home to the Labor Day Pigeon Shoot, Canned Hunts, Puppy Mills, Dog > Bunchers, New Holland & the dragging of downed cows is considered normal I agree, I live in the Scranton, PA area. Old coal mining area. Many of the people here have been here for many, many, generations. Everyone owns a gun. Most hunt deer, turkey, squirrels, whatever, faithfully. The people around here will shoot animals that stray onto their property without a second thought. Dogs, cats, even horses and cows have been shot during hunting season! They use them as target practice. It is really sad. It is quite behind the times here. That can be nice in some cases but not so nice in others. Many backyards look like dumps because either people won't throw things away or they keep everything because it costs to have the garbage men pick it up. Pick up is not included in taxes. Or better still they dump things like refrigerators, mattresses, stoves, etc. along the mountains!! The laws are not enforced very well so this happens quite frequently. There are many backyard horses around here that are well kept. I do think that most of these are owned by people that have moved into the area from New York or New Jersey though as the natives don't see much use for a horse. You just hit on a sore spot as I am always saying to my husband how backwards it is here. I can't sign off without saying of coarse there are some VERY NICE people here, natives and out of towners [myself included :-)] it is just that the laws are not much enforced which allows abuses to take place. Norma :-) ============================================================ Date: Sun, 06 Sep 1998 12:10:44 -0400 From: cabblcf To: equinerescue@MyList.net, "Nancy A. McHugh" Subject: Re: EQ-ResQ: CLASS: Law Enforcement Nancy A. McHugh wrote: > > When I first moved to Philadelphia someone described Pennsylvania to me in these exact words: "Between Philadelphia and Pittsburg it is Alabama." I never heard that, but it sure hits the nail on the head. Canned hunts are where they take tame animals, often from zoos(ever wonder what happens to all those babies born every year?) & release them in a fenced in area for people to come & shoot. Sometimes they just release them from the cage so the hunter can shoot them. When I first read accounts of this I felt physically ill. PA is a LEADER, if not the Leader in canned hunts. Dog Bunchers, & PA is near the top in this too, are I beleive what they call Class B Dealers, collect dogs to sell for research. Some come from ads in the newspapers, others from the pound, others are stolen or the free to good home animals go to them. Some are sold guaranteed to live 24 hours only. Unbelievably I have about 5 in my area. Scared to death to leave my dogs loose, for fear they will be grabbed by the bunchers. Large dogs can bring $50 to $75 I'm told. Local dealer has been in trouble for not providing clean housing, dead animlas laying around etc. Interesting point-they are always behind on their taxes too. USDA never shuts them down. Chris ============================================================ From: BLRYSTROM@aol.com Date: Sun, 6 Sep 1998 11:50:39 EDT To: equinerescue@MyList.net, lisaviger@juno.com Subject: Re: EQ-ResQ: CLASS: Law Enforcement dog bunchers are dog thieves who catch a whole bunch of them and then sell them at auction (usually) or through a contract to a laboratory. dawn ============================================================ From: BLRYSTROM@aol.com Date: Mon, 7 Sep 1998 01:31:40 EDT To: equinerescue@MyList.net, Ahorse5225@aol.com Subject: Re: EQ-ResQ: CLASS: Law Enforcement another good source...but expensive is lexis/nexis and westlaw. dawn ============================================================